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Message |
Lyndon Graves
Registered User
Username: Lyndon
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 6:46 pm: | |
Great info here, guys! Good job!
I wanted to provide a little further insight into a few areas. . .
First, Mold spores also fall under the heading of allergens. That is to say that some people will have allergic reactions to the spores, and others will not. If you have a history of respiratory problems such as asthma, avoid breathing the spores like the plauge!! A woman here in Los Angeles had respirtory failure, which was blamed upon the mold in her home, and her body's propensity to react to the spores. This is why some folks get sick, and some do not! It is the same way with poison oak, it does not affect us all!
Second, Bad Faith is based upon Intentional Fraud. It is usually evidenced by memos and statements which serve to deny coverages that should have been accepted. Fraud will also frequently have falsification of documents as an indicator of intentional misrepresentation. My point here is that bad faith is much more than simply bad adjusting. However, if you see dark marks around an air conditioning vent, and think to yourself that it could be mold, but tell the insured that it is just dirt, then you have begun with the seed of the Bad Faith process!
Finally, PYA!!! Protect Your A__ . These are tough claims as has been mentioned below. . .If you are given instructions by a supervisor or staff employee, put it in the log!!!! In detail!! If the Insureds provide you with critical information, put it in the log!!!Explain your findings, and photo document like heck! Your future may depend upon it!!
GOOD LUCK!! Lyndon |
John Durham
Registered User
Username: Johnd
Post Number: 47
Registered: 9-2000
| | Posted on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 2:39 pm: | |
Clayton:
Sounds remotely familiar to the statement made by the EPA that said; "Saliva, when swallowed in small amounts, over a prolonged period of time, will, or probably does, cause stomach cancer."
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Clayton Carr
Registered User
Username: Clayton
Post Number: 44
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 1:10 pm: | |
Hi Folks, I've followed with interest this thread and other sources, listening and gathering all I can regarding this mold "business". Before I go further, I want to extend my appreciation for the efforts of Dave Hood and Jim Lakes for their great contributions.
I have no cast in stone beliefs of what any moof can or would do to me or us in a physical sense. However, I was shocked this week, when I was watching Ripley's BION - I think it was Wednesday night - and they had a segment on a man who had "lost" in a very real sense most of his face; reportedly due to an infection resulting from the inhalation of "simple mold" off a loaf of bread. Did anyone else see this and have a thought? Obviously, we have all (or most) put our nose to a loaf a bread was growing mold and wondered if we picked that off we could still eat the slice.
I try not to get slanted by TV journalism, but? |
Ghostbuster
Member
Username: Ghostbuster
Post Number: 234
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 4:19 pm: | |
Always have and always will be on our side, i.e., us field hands. Yes, I will bite the hand that ocasionally feeds us a few crumbs and then complains we eat too much. All the while their voice is sobbing for us to be around at at their beck and call while they send out their 'kids' and we set by the phone for calls that never come.
Wong Whey, it is not uncommon for a domesticated animal to revert to a feral state to survive when it's "master" is neglectful and abusive. Are any of us independents out here going to be loyal yes-men and flag wavers when we are not on a stipend or pension or in a carriers group medical plan? Not this lil' red hen and probaly not you, either.
So, let the mold fester as long as it can.
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Rj
Registered User
Username: Rj
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 3:54 pm: | |
As with everything common sense must be your guiding light. When ever you enter a building pay attention to the level of odor (mold odor) you sense in the air. If you can pick it up by just breathing then the concentration may be high enough that you may what to protect your self from the air born spores.
Based on my own personal experience over an eleven year time span we have only encounter high levels of mold (that required us to obtain medical treatment) on Two occasions. Once working Hurricane Andrew & then last year during Tropical Storm Allison in Houston.
My point is that while mold issues should be addressed while handling claims don't get to overly excited every time you see some mold on a wall, floor or ceiling surface. Odds are it was there long before the water damage occurred and only accelerated as a result of the recent event.
Actually mold can tell you a lot about a loss. First examine it, don't touch it with anything as this could stir up air born spores, breathing it is what you do not want to do, as to the concentration, color and spread pattern.
The concentration will give you an indication if the water volume was high or low and can in most cases give an indicator as to the origin of the water loss.
Different molds have different colors so become familiar with the various colors and this will help in evaluating type, color & growth patterns for water damage evaluation purposes.
Finally, the spread pattern will provide you with a gage of time. Since humidity & temperature is the fuel for mold growth, the spread pattern can tell you a lot of history about the mold you are looking at. If you are in the middle of summer and the loss location has all of the windows open then you know that heat will accelerate mold growth. Such things as how long has the mold being growing according to the insured will tell you if this is a long or short term event simply by observing the mold and comparing your observation to the conditions of the environment that the mold is in. It is also important to note if any measures were taken to stop the mold from growing.
Now I will be the first to tell you that I am not a mold expert. My point is just this. Use common sense while handing any claim in which you observe mold growing. Using the traits I have described will allow you to use the mold as a tool in determining the cause & origin of the water loss. It will help you determine if the water damage was recent or long term. Finally it will tell you if anything was done to mitigate the water loss.
I keep referring to water because without it mold does not grow. The water source could be high humidity (occurring naturally), sudden event (flood, pipe burst, rain (wind blown or not)) or from an intentional act by someone or an animal. The source is important because that will identify the origin of the loss. Once the origin is identified the history around the source can be developed which will lead you to the cause of the loss.
Keep in mind that most water losses are not covered under most policies. This is where cause and origin come into play. Given the case when a water loss is excluded due to the cause & origin of said water loss the resulting mold damage most generally will also be excluded. Even if you make a determination that a covered water loss is covered additional mold damage outside the area damaged by water, that could have been prevented by mitigating measures, are the responsibility of the insured to prevent and in the lack of doing so excludes coverage for this additional mold damage.
In the final analysis covered water claims when handled properly will address all surfaces of a building that are effected by the water damage. Since mold is an effect of the water damage all areas should take the treatment of mold into account in the scope of damages that were directly caused as a result of the loss. However, common sense must be applied when evaluating a loss involving mold. Humidity, mitigation after the loss & time all must be taken into consideration in making a proper determination of insured?s covered loss.
Addressing mold in most cases is not that difficult. Most mold can be removed by removing the water damaged wall & ceiling coverings. The exposed wall& ceiling framing can then be treated and recovered. Occasionally additional mold is discovered after the water damaged area is removed. In those cases a reinspection may be required to determine the extent of additional mold damage and if hidden conditions attributed or not back to the original water damage.
The recent attention given mold is creating a myth that mold is a cause of loss. To this end I disagree. By applying the simple principles of cause & effect, mold spores will only grow if food & humidity are present. The rate of growth is also affected by the temperature. Take any one of these elements away and the conditions to permitting mold spore growth will not exist. Knowing this will allow you to effectively use mold as a tool in determining the cause of a loss because mold is just an effect of water & not a cause of loss. Again I make the reference to water. The reason for this is due to the fact that mold spores are always present & the food source that the spores are attached to also is. The only missing element is the necessary moisture required to permit growth.
The last element I will address here is the subject of time. As with all living organisms mold spores take time to grow. The growth time will vary depending upon the concentration & type of mold spores, available food supply, humidity level and the ambient temperature.
Most of the time when you are going to inspect a loss the loss will have just occurred. So time has been relative short and mold if any will normally be minimal, the exception being an extreme situation such as flooding or a major hurricane event, the mold you will observe will be limited on the surface (both sides & internally (sheet rock)) where the water damage occurred. This will narrow down the possibilities of the source of water which is the cause of loss which in turn will lead you to the origin of loss. The origin will then help you make a determination of coverages as most long term causes (e.g. a leaking water pipe or worn out roof) are not covered. Whereas a sudden or accidental cause of loss is (e.g. a burst water pipe (caution absence of heating may exclude this from being covered) a hole in the roof caused by a falling object, hail or wind).
If any source of water is left unchecked over a period of time the spread of mold and the mold spore pattern will generate away from the point of origin. Understanding the site conditions will give you a good insight as to the time duration since the water first activated the mold growth. Remember long term damage is normally excluded from coverage so becoming familiar with mold will allow the observance of the mold to be a valuable tool in the determination of the cause & origin of a water loss.
Again I have not been formally trained in mold. These are only observations that I have made over a long period of time and have found that I am able to handle these types of claims with an insured very effectively. Everyone has their own way of addressing mold claims and I do not know of an industry standard. This just happens to be how I have been addressing those types of losses. If there is a better way I am listening.
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mark salmon
Registered User
Username: Olderthendirt
Post Number: 147
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 3:10 pm: | |
Good common scense article. Just don't forget we have some insured who are in real need, and others in real greed.
Mold, like flood earthquake and coastal wind will become an additional coverage, but will likely stay as part of the basic policy as an endorsement. Is it real yeah, sit in an insureds house for a 1/2 hour and leave with running eyes etc, you'll believe. Has it been overblown, YES, it is possible to deal quickly with most losses. I will say one thing, if you are to handle the claims properly, you better have had real adjusting background, not just cat (ie one peril wonders). Get a couple of remediation bids for the same job 6000 and 25000 you'll wonder what is going on.
Bad faith means poor adjusting whether it's mold flood or hail, if you know how to adjust it good work, especialy in the slow times. Just a few rambling thoughts (molderthendirt) |
D Wong Whey
Registered User
Username: Dwongwhey
Post Number: 90
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 2:34 pm: | |
Ghostbuster, your comment: "After what they have done to us, it's only fair" surprises me.
Do you recognize as well what "we have done to ourselves" which would include such an outrageous statement as your own which seems to be biting the very hand that (sometimes) feeds you?
Please help me understand which SIDE you really are on!
(Message edited by dwongwhey on March 24, 2002) |
Ghostbuster
Member
Username: Ghostbuster
Post Number: 233
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 2:20 pm: | |
That's right, mold will not go away. The parties benefitting from mold will fight to keep this gravy train as long as possible. Who are these people?
The ones that really benefit from mold are the lawyers, publc adjusters, assorted contractors and testing labs. Of course, some of our brethern aren't doing so bad on this deal, either.
From what I'm seeing, policyholders are madder'en hell over the tremendous rate increases and being dumped into hither to unknown little podunk carriers that will still write an HOB. Other souls in this forum have made dire predictions as to our future. Having been able to duck into bunker and discover a means to survive, I, for one, relish the spectacle of seeing mold reek havoc and ruin on reserve levels while home office honchos scramble to save their scrawny hides from the board of directors and shareholders.
After what they have done to us, it's only fair. |
R D Hood
Registered User
Username: Old_dog
Post Number: 91
Registered: 1-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 12:58 pm: | |
Open discussion on Mold:
First, we should offer kudos' to Jim Lakes, for the excellent commentary on mold. It is blatantly obvious that he had spent many hours in research and thought in preparation of the article.
An article written by myself in 2000, addressed this "new" phenomena, "Toxic Mold". In that publication, almost all of the references made by Jim are included. You may wish to peruse this site under articles to read this.
Since this appeared to be the upcoming item of concern for adjusters, we opted to investigate, (as did Jim), educate ourselves, and become acutely aware of the concerns, both real and imagined, of these types of claims.
In this venue, we attended the classes sponsored by the MidAtlantic Environmental Hygiene Resource Center at the College of Sciences in Philadelphia, PA. These classes were for the:
1) Investigation, Sampling, Identifying and assessing Biological and Microbiological Contamination in the Indoor Environment.
2) Developing Remediation Strategy and Writing Specifications for a Mold Remediation Project.
While not at all inexpensive, they proved to be extremely worthwhile. The classes were given by some of the countries foremost people involved in the issues, including one of the Microbiologist that was involved in writing the New York Guidelines in 1993, and by the company that is testing the WTC and has done over one MILLION tests.
Subsequent to this education, and wanting to become deeply involved, we purchased all of the necessary and required equipment to perform these tests. (If you want to drop $5,000-$10,000 real fast, get into this area.)
We now receive the IAQ newspaper, www.ieconnections.com and are blown away by the amount of advertisements for Mold Remediation Certifications / Instructions, etc. As Jim stated there are NO REQUIREMENTS PUT FORTH BY ANYONE to do this.
The issue at hand is the proper handling of the claim. The adjuster MUST know what they are doing, Must protect themselves, by documentation, photographs, proper gear, etc. (FYI, some adjusters working these claims have become Ill and have ceased to do this, and others are contemplating leaving.)
They do NOT inspect the losses with adequate protection to their person. (Tyvek suits, HEPA Full face respirators, earplugs, latex gloves and Booties) Sure, there may NOT be any problems with Mycotoxins in one loss but when you visit several in a week, you surely will encounter some. Better safe than sorry, 2-3 years from now. Many people think that there are only a few molds and mycotoxins that are dangerous, THAT is a mistake. There are many, and they are relatively un-addressed. (Again, educate yourself)
Just as there are no set requirements by anyone there is an equal amount of unknowns as to the potential health risks. How many asbestos brake shoes did we change in the 50's not knowing that the dust we blew from the wheel was entering our lungs, only to be related to asbestosis years later? How many squares of Transite (Asbestos) roofing and siding did we install, cutting many pieces?
Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, this Mold issue will NOT go away, any more than the Asbestos or the Tobacco issues. If we choose to work the claims, we are OBLIGATED to become cognizant of the potential liabilities, the hazards as well as the long-term possible effects.
For anyone to sit thru a 1-2 day session and be instructed, (as Jim stated) by someone reading from a book, as opposed to someone that was in the foxhole being peppered by AK-47 fire is IMHO, absolutely fool hardy.
IF you choose to do the claim, do it right, or not at all. Most of the files that are resulting in awards (and there are several HUNDRED) are the direct result of mishandlings of the file by the adjuster or the carrier.
You may ultimately be come involved to the tune of the House, Farm, Barn, Ranch, Car and Truck, if you are not prepared.
In may be time for those comrades in arms, whom are working these files, to offer some sincere input to the discussion. We are, after all, a loose knit society of extremely independent thinkers, and it is not my opinion that we offer malice toward any of our own.
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JimLakes
Registered User
Username: Jimlakes
Post Number: 69
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 12:25 pm: | |
TO ALL
No sooner had Roy posted my article on “Mold” than I ran across an article on (Link Removed) as the feature story, that makes my complete point about why this subject is so misunderstood, misquoted, misinformed, and in a lot of cases totally unfounded. Read what they had to say about the Ballard case and the case in Cleveland. I should have called my article; “Mold, “The No Spin Zone.”
Some people say things that are totally false and misleading with no sources or facts to back up what they are saying. They say expert sources, but fail to say who they are. They make statements that cannot be verified or authenticated because they fail to mention whom the person was that supposedly said it.
The article is called:
Read 'em and weep: Costly insurance problems that confront consumers nationwide.
DUH, I wonder why. Then they had the audacity to refer back to the mold article that does not tell all the facts. That is one of the EXACT reasons that our premiums our going through the roof, because of such reckless and unsubstantiated articles.
Of course, once I did some research and found out who owns this site, it all became clear. Go to “About Us” and read it and you draw your own conclusions.
Jim Lakes, RPA
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Dan Meler
Registered User
Username: Danmeler
Post Number: 7
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 1:16 am: | |
Roy,
Thanks for the mold info. The general public couldn't care less how inflated these claims become. Insurance companies are just about a popular as the IRS. The carriers are a little slow in dealing with the outlandish situation that has developed, but that's just a fact of life at this point. What WILL cause the big stir is when people can no longer get the coverage they really need at an affordable premium. Astronomical premiums are something everyone will understand....but who will take the heat for that when it happens? The carriers of course!!
I'm not too interested in working mold claims, for a variety of reasons, but I hope someone can jam the brakes on this things as soon as possible. |
Kile Anderson
Registered User
Username: Kileanderson
Post Number: 142
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 7:47 pm: | |
If mold were as deadly as they say it is my family tree would have been uprooted long ago. With all the hunting camps, boat houses and canvas tents we've been in since we were booted out of canada and settled in soggy south Louisiana, we've probably all breathed our own weight in mold long ago. As with all things, the bottom line is common sense. |
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