| Author |
Message |
Cecelia
| | Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 8:38 am: | |
Thank you for the website info Mr. Cook.
I have a Cemwood roof on a claim and it is 8 or 9 years old. The roof is in VERY poor condition. The photo submitted by Steve Florig appears to be a shingle in pretty good shape. If it's Cemwood I would think it might be a relatively new roof (my understanding is Cemwood went bankrupt approximately 5 years ago, but who is to say that more of the shingle was not sold and applied by various roofing companies who still had stock?). |
William S. Cook (Wscook)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 8:05 pm: | |
Steve Floriq
Here is some information that may help you identify your roof. The first site has information on the roof and the second site has a picture that looks very similar to your picture.
I hope this helps in your project.
William S Cook
Public Adjuster
http://www.cemwoodclaims.com
http://www.cemwoodclaims.com/identify.html |
Art Hall
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2001 - 11:05 pm: | |
The picture ain't Masonite Woodruf! Any guesses as to the real product from any of you pros out there?
Also on BUR, who still believes in the Sweep, Flood and Regravel fairy tale?
Thirdly, since when was gravel used as ballast on a BUR roof? Whoever referred to it as a ballasted roof care to venture a guess as to what the gravel is there for?
Art |
David P Bennett (Whitey)
| | Posted on Sunday, October 14, 2001 - 8:41 pm: | |
On BUR roofs with gravel coat. The inspection of these type of roofs are quite difficult. The mere busting of the bubbles (as some one has referred to) does not constitute damage to the roof surface. Parapet wall damage and flashing damage also will not dictact that the main surface has been damaged. If the gravel has been applied over a flood coat, you will need to look for indentations and then sweep back the gravel and see if at least the top felt has been fractured. It generally takes a good size stone with good velocity to damage these type of roofs. On a BUR without gravel, the impacts generally are quite easily ascertained. Again you must verify that the underlying felt has been fractured. Damage to the flood coat does not necessarily mean damage to the roof. One method to verify is to have a core sample cut out and then have the flood coats and tar coats removed. Most roof engineering firms are able to do this in their labs. It can be done on site, using a torch to melt the tar away leaving the felt. The core sample is easily repairable and must be done at the time the sample is taken. Generally if questions exist and damage not clear, it is best to recommend to the carrier to have core samples taken to confirm or deny. As to repairs, thats a whole other topic. Most hail damage does not require complete tearout and replacement of the roof. |
John Durham (Johnd)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 11, 2001 - 1:04 am: | |
When I inspect a BUR I always look along the curved transition area along the BUR and parapet wall. This area usually does not enjoy the underpinning support and is more likely to have impact damage from hail stones. Also this area usually will have less balast gravel than areas on the middle of the BUR. Just looking across a BUR gravel flood roof you will see areas that have little or no balast and this is a good place to inspect. Also look along the areas by AC units, scuppers, etc. Looking in the middle of the roof, as Ghost said, could be fruitless unless you are an expert, and then it is still tough to determine damage. |
Justin Duckworth (Justducky)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 11, 2001 - 12:56 am: | |
You can also look for any gas blisters on the roof that are in alligator or star impact areas. When hail hits a roof and allows some moisture to penetrate the membrane there will be hydrogen gas bubbles or blisters that start to appear. This is only ONE of may clues. These gas bubbles or blisters could have been present before the hail impacts, and could actually help with the hail impact damage. Many times the gravel flood will have imbedded gravel that acts as a conduit for moisture to be introduced under the membrane. |
Ghostbuster (Ghostbuster)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 10:20 pm: | |
Or, you can get your ugly ol' nose down level with the roof and look for what looks like anthills or craters along with possible scour marks on discolored gravel. If you can find these craters, photo them first, then sweep back the gravel in that spot. Press down on the impact spot and see if there is any crack or separation that might resemble a zipper. If so, photo that as well. This is nondestructive testing. For the definitive word, samples must be taken for analysis by qualified experts. Or, have a carrier supervisor come out for a reinspect.
A BUG roof is tough. It takes some hefty hail to damage one in average condition. |
Dave Dehlinger
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 8:32 pm: | |
The only effective way I know of to check a hot mop & gravel roof is to sweep off the gravel in a few areas of at least 3'by 3'. Even then it's hard to find. It's also next to impossible to tell the insured he has no damage when all the roofs around him are being replaced. These are the losses that end up being paid for political reasons. A battle you won't win. I guess after a number of years you learn to draw your lines in the sand on things you have a chance of prevailing on. And, this aint one of em! |
Steve
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 4:19 pm: | |
Can we open a discussion on tar & gravel residental roofs and how to inspect for hail damage?
I have worked several hailstorms in areas that were hit with large hail. The comp, wood and metal roofs are hit very hard and are obviously damaged. I can never find hail damage on the tar & gravel roofs in these same areas. Short of checking metal flashing on the parapets and moving aside some of the gravel on the roof to look for damage is there anywhere else I can check for damage? It seems like these roofs are very resistant to even large hailstones. I assume that some of the gravel can be driven into the roof by some large hail but how would one tell if this has happened and if this has caused any damage? |
Strick
| | Posted on Friday, October 05, 2001 - 5:54 am: | |
Steve,
May I suggest you look around risk and find out exactly what kind of "TREES" surround this out, that may just be some kind of Tree sap, pine,etc that will cause severe discoloration as indicated in photo. Just a small tip. |
James Guerrero
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2001 - 9:17 pm: | |
Masonite does not wear well. I do not understand why it is used for roofs. I bet those white spots are some sort of mold, maybe even a new species. |
roger eyman
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2001 - 3:26 pm: | |
Since this is a continuing problem for adjusters, I contacted Owens Corning and below is the email they returned today. It might be worth while to call the 800 number and request their hail bulliten.
______________________
Dear Mr. Eyman,
Every roof will experience granule loss as the roof ages. New roofs,
under 3 years old, may see more loss at first. There are, what we call
riders, on the shingles. These are excess granules from the
manufacturering process that come of during the first couple of years.
This type of granule loss should not effect the life of the roof.
Granules that are knocked off from hail cause the asphalt in the shingle
to be exposed to the sun. The sun then starts to degrade the asphalt at
a faster rate shortening the life of the shingle. We of course do not
cover damage due to hail. In some cases hail damage may not be visible
for up to one year.
We do have a bulletin that talks about hail that could be sent to you.
Please let me know if you would prefer this letter to be faxed or
mailed. You might also talk to are claims lab about hail. You can
reach them at 1-800-766-3464 or you can call me in Technical Services at
1-800-828-7155.
Sincerely,
Lee Burlingame
Technical Services |
ToddSummers
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2001 - 1:02 pm: | |
The product in the photo is , I believe, Woodruff manufactured by Masonite. It is the subject of a class action suit claiming defects in the areas of delamination and discoloration. I have seen many of these roofs, some with hail damage and some without. The delamination and discoloration problems are not covered because they are the result of a material defect. I have been instructed by my management to pay for hail damage to these roofs and that hail damage occurs when the hail breaks the surface membrane exposing the body of the shingle to the elements.
I cannot tell from the photo if it is hail damage or not. The defective performance of this product is not found with a circular pattern. Given the circular appearance, I would say that the only two things that come to my mind are hail and as Kile pointed out... pigeons. I suppose that the acid ? in pigeon dung may eat away the membrane. My guess would be hail. Is there any other evidence of hail on the roof? Vents, valleys, paint on facia etcetera ? Hail damage to composition roofs in the area ?
Also, if you can't identify the product, I would save the expense of an engineer until after you have consulted a with a roofing contracter or even better a roofing supply representative. Since this product is normally no longer available, ( a few contracters have stockpiled used pieces for repairs.) A comparable replacement product for Masonite Woodruff in price and supposed performance is Hardy shakes. |
Jim Lakes
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2001 - 11:28 am: | |
Fellow Adjusters,
I agree with Bill Cook, it looks like asbestos tile. It is hard to tell by looking at a photograph, but I have seen this tile in a pink color that was asbestos. It is most prevalent in FL and CA.
Lets do as most good adjusters and claims people would do, recommend that an engineer or expert look at the roof to determine type of material and cause of the loss. If we do not know, we are obligated to establish “cost and cause.”
We can debate the issue for days or longer and would not settle anything. If I were handling the loss, I would recommend that an engineer evaluate the loss for cause and type materials involved and make my recommendations based on his report.
We could find out what type material it was; however, we could not determine the cause without an expert opinion. Think about how many times have you been in a neighborhood, looked around, and seen many of the same roofs with the same problem. IE: delaminating, curling, nail pops, staples. Then, the contractor says it is all because of hail damage. If the other houses in this neighborhood all have the same problem, it should be a tip off for us to establish, “why,” before we recommend to the carrier to pay for these roofs and then find out it may be a defect or some other non-peril problem.
Jim Lakes RPA
National Catastrophe Director
RAC Adjustments, Inc.
866.241.6574 |
alan jackson (Ajackson)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2001 - 9:29 am: | |
Jim:
If the cause of loss is a defect, then I would agree. However, if there is hail damage to the roof, I believe you would have to pay the claim. You could get the insured to sign a subrogation receipt and attemt to recover from class action. I could not tell from the photo if it was damaged or not. |
Kile Anderson (Kileanderson)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2001 - 8:32 am: | |
Steve,
Have you considered pigeons? |
steve
| | Posted on Thursday, October 04, 2001 - 7:43 am: | |
I do not doubt that this is masonite. This material has a soft texture, almost like cardboard and not stiff and brittle like asbestos tile. The damage is alleged to have happened over a year ago so I don't think these are clean spots. There are no depressions or chips on the edges of the tiles that you would expect to find from hail. If you scrath the surface of a tile (not on the white spot) it comes up light brown (like the color of bread crust) under the grey surface color. I know the cause of loss is not hail and I was just wanting some more info on this unique roofing product. |
William S. Cook (Wscook)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2001 - 11:57 pm: | |
Steve
Many asbestos shingle roof look a lot like a masonite roof. How do you know it is not an asbestos roof and if it is you now may be dealing with friable asbestos that must be handled as a hazmat claim. The hail does damage just as you have shown to asbestos tiles. Your roof claim could run over twenty thousand if it is asbestos.
William S Cook
Public Adjuster |
Jim Flynt (Jimflynt)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2001 - 10:21 pm: | |
Alan, if I were the adjuster, and denying the claim based on policy language, I would do so by looking to the following:
" SECTION I - PERILS INSURED AGAINST
COVERAGE A - DWELLING and COVERAGE B - OTHER STRUCTURES
We insure against risk of direct loss to property described in Coverages A and B only if that loss is a physical loss to property. We do not insure, however, for loss:
2. Caused by:
e.
(1).....deterioration;
(2) Inherent vice, latent defect......"
(HO-00 03 Edition 04 91)
or, if a commercial risk
" B. EXCLUSIONS
2. We will not pay for loss or damage caused by or resulting from any of the following:
d (2) ....decay, deterioration, hidden or latent defect or any quality in property that causes it to damage or destroy itself; "
(CP 10 30 Edition 06 95)
A 'defective product' which is the 'subject of a class action lawsuit' would certainly seem to me to fall within the definition of latent defect and perhaps inherent vice as well, either of which would be excluded from coverage as a cause of loss. |
Kile Anderson (Kileanderson)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2001 - 10:08 pm: | |
Alan,
I think what Steve is asking is if the white spots where caused by hail and if so do these white spots constitute damage.
Steve,
From the photos I really can't tell anything. I've never worked with masonite roofing material but it seems to me that if the surface had weathered over the years there could be some surface discoloration similar to oxidation on aluminum siding (I know it isn't the same since masonite is not metal, but the analogy applies).
Maybe the hail simply "cleaned" these areas by knocking off the exterior filth. If that is the case presure washing may clean the whole roof and make it look a uniform color again. I don't think that cleaning the roof would be covered if it is truly what is needed.
I am just speculating here. Hopefully others will have some ideas. |
alan jackson (Ajackson)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2001 - 6:13 pm: | |
Why is there no coverage? Can you please use specific policy language please? The Insurance Company did issue a policy of insurance on the risk?? I take it that the roof in question was already installed at the time of the policy issuance. How doe the class action suit affect payment of the claim?? Was the roof damaged as the result of a covered peril??
Thanks in advance
A.J. |
Steve Florig
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2001 - 4:14 pm: | |
click photo for larger view
This is a masonite roof with white spots all over it. The insd is claiming this is hail damage and advised that neighbor's roofs have the same condition and they were paid for new roofs by their insurance companies. I know this is a defective product that is involved in class action suit (hence no coverage), but I need to know what exactly is happening to the shingle that is making these white spots and splotches show up. Thanks in advance for your input folks! |
Kile Anderson (Kileanderson)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2001 - 10:20 pm: | |
On the granular loss issue. If you find distinct spots evenly distributed across a slope that show granular loss that look like they were caused by an impact then I would say you owe for that slope. Aluminum gutters and vents are a great indicator for hail.
If you find granules in the downspouts or in the gutters or on the driveway because of heavy rain, this is normal and I would say no you don't owe for the roof because there is no hail damage. A lot of people say that they didn't have those granules in the downspouts before. The truth is, they never looked at their downspouts after a heavy rain before. They looked this time because there was hail in the area.
Granules are designed to be shed over the course of the life of the roof. A roof is a wearable surface like a tire and over time you would be expected to lose granules. I can't tell you how many times I've had this conversation with roofers. The good ones agree and learn something about hail. The slimy ones keep arguing.
I know this stuff sounds pretty basic, and you old salts will probably laugh, but I didn't know this on my first roof. If it can help someone, I think it's worth saying. |
Strick
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2001 - 8:01 pm: | |
QUESTION: Does a loss of granuals from a composition shingle, when it is possible that it occurred due to hail, constitute a direct physical loss?
ANSWER: (one of many) Yes ! by the way you worded your question. You had a (possible peril,hail) and loss of granuals are a direct physical loss, again from the way your question is posed. BUT, I think your question is really this, Does granualar loss after a hail storm mean the roof needs to be replaced. Now you have to review all the other posts again.
QUESTION: Does this loss of granuals decrease the natural life of the shingle?
ANSWER: Yes. Again the way your question is posed! However, your real question may be this, Do I Owe for this roof due to granular loss after a reported hail storm in the area. again I refer to my top answer.
Ghostbusters post was the real advise you should heed, find an old adjuster,roofer(who you trust) get him to go with you on a few roofs and just watch and listen. you will learn so much. |
Ghostbuster (Ghostbuster)
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 9:34 pm: | |
Steve, you have recieved a bushel basket of solid concrete information from some VERY qualified folks here. If you cannot immediately go to a hail seminar with folks like Ric or the Haag Engineering bunch, may I suggest you track down a REAL storm trooper that lives in your area. Be sure and buy him a nice lunch and take him on a few roofs. Our words of wisdom here can't compare with actually applying them to a field application.
I also can't help but wonder about your situation. You indicate you have about four years experience. Do you own your own shop? Do you work for a local independent?...or??? Do your clients have any guidelines for how they want their losses handled? Your queries are somewhat elemental in nature but your tone seems to be one of desperation. Is this your first hail storm? |
James Guerrero
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 7:56 pm: | |
I can help you, Steve, with a methodology of how I go about determining hail damage. First, eliminate what is not hail damage. That is more easy. What is not hail damage is things like cracking, curling, cupping, blistering, mechanical action, brittleness, loss of granulation, discoloration, and shading, etc. What you have left is a distinct, if you have a light colored shingle, soft spot of various size and depression. The degree of granulation loss, determined by rubbing the area with your finger,in that area will indicate the degree of damage. Usually, the hail hits are dark in contrast to a light shingle. If you press the hit with your finger, it will be bruised like an apple bruise. Now the trick is to find as many hail hits as possible because Snake Farm loves as many as possible. Also, find hail hits on every slope because Snake Farm loves as many slopes as possible. With all the work done, you will end up on the roof a lot longer than you think. I believe finding hail damage is becoming a process rather than making a call on a roof. Now companies like to get the field inspector and claims manager involved, and the process of calling significant hail damage is done by two or more people in the more difficult cases. I've accepted that now, and I think the power of the adjuster is more represented in numbers of people who agree. I hope this helps somewhat. But, I'm sure it probably is still gray. |
Jim Lakes
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 5:00 pm: | |
Steve W.
Ric Vitiello answered your questions the best way possible. It is impossible to give you a “Yes or No” answer without an explanation. Like, “Can I drive a car?” Yes or no depends on many factors.
If this is what you want, I would answer them this way. However, we are going to get many posts that will dispute these answers and I cannot disagree with them.
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Depends on many factors.
I would suggest that you try to attend a seminar that gives you a complete understanding on how shingles are made and what happens to them when hit by hail. Haag Engineering and many others, Ric Vitiello for one put on these seminars all year long.
I have attended many of them and what you may learn could be very enlightening to you and help you better understand why there are not “Yes and No” answers to your questions.
One more thing, this is why they call us "ADJUSTERS." This is why we are paid to use our knowledge and experience, so we can answer the questions that are not simply "Yes or No."
Jim Lakes RPA
National Catastrophe Director
RAC Adjustments, Inc.
866.241.6574 |
Steve W
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 3:20 pm: | |
Please be patient with me. I will try and restate my original questions. By the way, these are the same questions I've been asking for four years now. Either no one really knows, or if they do know, they want to keep it a secret.
Does a loss of granuals from a composition shingle, when it is possible that it occurred due to hail, constitute a direct physical loss?
Does this loss of granuals decrease the natural life of the shingle?
If so, how much?
I work in an defined geographic area. And because of this, I work with the insurer, insured,and the contractors daily to try and appropraitely settle a claim. When the dung hits the fan, I'm the one with the shovel.
I'm pose these questions to improve my claim handling ability, by hopefully learning from other with more experience. Just because I have been doing it a certain way for four years, doesn't mean it has been done right. |
Ghostbuster (Ghostbuster)
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 3:04 pm: | |
But, Claimsranger, do we want this thread to tangent off into the dirty little tricks of the trade that are used to augment a carriers/vendors El Cheapo Grande fee schedule?
By the way, in your neck of the woods, there is a great radio station that has a permanent button on my radio dial. It is that public radio station that plays the 'Beautiful Music' format. I think it is 91.3FM out of the college in I think, Killeen. |
Claimsranger
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 2:48 pm: | |
Ghoust, without mentioning the names of the Whacoans - that WHACO-uns that generally represent the FIG(especially since they are my neighbors 12 miles North) this is a great thread.!!! Big Red's blue and red stickers on ACV/RC on estimates, Big Blue and their roof process procedure, they still do that? Old dents in stacks and vents from 6 years ago that weren't replaced but paid for in '95/96, collateral damage to stained fences, holes in siding that they don't make anymore so you wrap the house for an end elevation of 16x20. I don't ride with contractors so I have never been offered a box of steaks? Omaha must love every hail storm of ANY note! Gypsy roofers that leave their X's & O's ie. Hugs-N-Kisses on the roof and footfall twists on a hot comp roof that on a grey day in May appear to be a hail hit. Seems I remember about June 1 of this year the FIG called all the sheep home to Kansas and had TOTO chew on 'em for paying it just to make it go away. Appears they are trying to becoming IA's now! Oh Wise One! Please direct me in my small and insignificant venture to edumicate the masses of our community to the nuances of hail vs. spark damage around a chimney stack on the rear slope that "sure looks like hail" especially the risks on the 9th fairway dogleg! and old damage vs. new! |
Ghostbuster (Ghostbuster)
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 2:48 pm: | |
Yep, Todd, that's another of my PMS triggers. The hot shot troopers who 'blow and go', then are awarded with new files while we, who are grinding them out in the proper fashion, are shorted on files at the tailend of the storm. Meanwhile, the hotshots from Whitesboro, Tx have gone on down the road to the next storm, leaving behind your perfect illustration. I also enjoy the macros they setup in their computers to give every house seven screens and an A/C combing. (Whether there are seven screens and/or an A/C, or not.)
Todd, you're right about the roofers call for reinspection. He pointed out the 1st adjusters errors, apparently after the hotshot had the chance to do his magic. I have no problem with that. In fact, that is part of my standard spiel to each Insured. None of us are perfect, especially me. I recall an old saying to the effect that, 'When you get to be perfect, all their gonna do is put nail holes in your hands'. |
ToddSummers
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 2:32 pm: | |
I should note that some time (45 days) had passed between inspections. Sometimes it does take this long or longer for light hail damage to start showing up. This also depends somewhat on the color of the shingles. This particular roof was NOT light hail damage, however. This guy was just pure lazy. |
ToddSummers
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 2:24 pm: | |
GB , I agree that vandalizing the evidence is immoral and in fact tantamount to criminal.
However I'm not sure that I agree with the statement that it is only our job to determine the extent of damage and not theirs. One recent example comes to mind. I was recently working cleanup on a hailstorm in Texas. A reopened file I was assigned turned out to be no claimed by the original adjuster. The insured stated that his roofer said his roof is totalled. My inspection revealed obvious hail damage (15 hits per tst sq.)to 3 out of four slopes. My inspection also revealed that this property was a mansion with 80+ squares that was steep, 2-story, and very cut-up. There was also a large 40 square pool house with bay windows and several dormers and offsets. It too was steep and cutup. There were 2 other steep outbuildings. My exterior inspection revealed hail damage to window weatherstripping , paint, and 4 A/C condender units. It took me roughly 90 minutes just to draw and measure the roofs. My view is that the original adjuster did not want to spend the time to total this roof and therefore, he did not. If it hadn't been for the roofer's evaluation, this insured would have had severe shingle deterioration problems further down the road. Keep in mind that all of the "gypsies" out there aren't roofers. Some are cat adjusters who specialize in "blowin and goin" ! And they know who they are.
Note: The sweet part of this claim is that I was still on a fee schedule and my fee was in excess of TRIPLE what the original adjuster billed. Time well spent I'd say. The sad part is that adjusting this way , he probably billed 4 during the time it took me to bill this one.
I take solace in KNOWING that these creeps will eventually be blacklisted from every vendors list,(but not after making many tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars that should have been being earned by honest, hardworking adjusters.) |
Ghostbuster (Ghostbuster)
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 9:16 am: | |
Steve, I wish to personally thank you for opening up such a large and particularly, juicy Pandoras Box. With many of us idled and becoming extremely bored, this thread could well generate over 100 postings. Thank you for brightening up our day!
My, My, where to start, where to start...we could start with the rather mundane technical issues like granular erosion, or vent cap dents, or hits per square. But, I see that Rick and Chuck have already chewed on that bone.
How about the 'We get you back where you belong and tell you where to go' of Farmers and the wackos of Waco? This alone could cause the entire Internet to go into gridlock.
Gypsy roofers? Your IA buddy from the 'Don't play with it , pay it' school of thought? I'm mentally overwhelmed here, I just don't know where to start.
Steve, one question, is this your first day on the job or the second? |
David Houtz
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 8:01 am: | |
Baby Hail vs. Texas Big Boy Hail
Texas Big Boy Hail no problem, just measure the roof correctly.
Baby Hail: do the best that you can, be fair, talk to the roofers, they may have something to say that might help you. measure the roof correctly. One Fact: If the turbines, caps, guttering, a/c finns, metal fascia, ect are not hit, show no signs of hail impacts the the roof is not damaged by hail. |
Strick
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 6:01 am: | |
My comment is that each roof is different, sometimes all the things you say, such as dents in vents, etc , all have a bearing on the adjustment of the roof.
most carriers use a rule of thumb of 5 hits per square or more would indicate how much of the slope you replace.
It sounds to me like you are seeing some soft hail, which blemishes roofs, and seeing some granular loss, which occurs in any type of weather, especially rain, wind and small hail and tree leaves falling O:}! however, it further sounds like the Farmer adjuster may be a "CAT" adjuster who is hitting the town with 100 claims paying like a slot machine, and then leaving for the cleanup and reinspectors to see that he has mispaid,overpaid, shouldn't have paid claims.
Your determination has to be made on "each" roof and "each" circumstance surrounding this particuliar roof.
My suggestion would be that if "YOU" think from "YOUR" inspection, and "IF" you "test-patterened" the roof and with "OVER 5 " "good" photographable hits per square, then replace that slope. Now if it is less, the calculate the repairs. each slope will indicate what you do. if it is just a gable 2 patterns are normally o.k. to replace, if it is cut up and big, you just have to "adjust" the claim and slope individually.
I know this all sounds looney but the bottom line of when any adjuster at looks at a roof and when they decide to pay or deny a questionable or unquestionable roof, is that they are sending something to the carrier that represents their work product, and one school of thought would be that your work is "YOU", and I think the best thing to remember when sending a request to pay "ANY" claim is,
"WHAT THE EYE SEES, THE HEART BELIEVES"! |
Ric Vitiello (Ricvitiello)
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 3:37 am: | |
Steve,
I'll try to give you something to hang your hat on, one question at a time.
Q:Does a loss of granules constitute direct physical damage to the shingles, and thus require the shingles to be replaced? And if so, how many granuals have to be missing?
A: loss of granules that can be identified on the shingle (bare spot) and can be determined to be due to hail impact do constitute direct physical damage. However, the damage should be significant and sufficient to reduce the shingle service life to meet most insurance company standards. In other words, one or two granules lost do not necessarily constitute damage but may constitute a stretch of imagination. other collateral damage would be considered in this case to determine the size and amount of hail.
Q: Are hail dents in the aluminum roof vents, vent caps, and/or valleys sufficient evidence of probable hail damage to the shingles?
A: dented soft metal accessories indicate the size, amount and direction of hail. This helps to determine the likelihood of hail damage to the roofing material but does not prove the existence or absence of roofing damage.
Q: How do you determine whether the hail was hard or soft?
A: The total Mass of a hail stone very important in determining whether it will do damage to roofing material, however a large snowball is less likely to do damage and a smaller ice cube is more likely. The density of hail is determined by the size of hail blemishes, the degree of penetration and/or mat fracture, and the shape and size of dents in metal accessories. Make your determination only after compiling all of the evidence on a loss.
Q: Do 7,9,11,13,or15 hits per test square, per slope, constitute grounds for replacement of that particular slope?
A: So that all insureds are treated equally and fairly the carrier will normally set a standard to be met, however if there are no guidelines set you must set your own standard of fairness to be used on all claims equally. When I am placed in this position I determine if there is "significant" and "measurable" damage as noted by blemishes on the roofing material. In other words, NOT granules in the gutter, but blemishes on the roofing material to the extent that repair is not practical. If you have 5 hits per SQ on a 12/12 15 yr old brittle shingle slope repairs may not be practical but 5 hits on a 4/12 slope with 2 year old shingles may be practical.
Q: I adjust claims for small mutual insurance companies, and sorry to say, they usually have few if any guidelines. The idea of one of their staff adjuster going out into the field would be a foreign concept.
A: Yep, Adjust the claim... fairly and impartially
Q: After a July hail storm I was finding no significant hail damage on my assignments,but the Farmers adjusters were replacing every roof around me. Am I missing something?
A: Maybe, Maybe not. this is a problem that all adjusters face. are the criterii the same for all companies? Are the insureds saying "everybody" else is getting roofs. Is there some incentive for the other adjusters to overscope? (low fee for no claimers)? there are a number of possible reasons. All you can do is be fair and impartial but of course accurate.
Q: Another problem: By the time I get to the hail area, usually 48 hours, the streets are lined with the signs from roofers from all over the country. They sign the insured up to let them act on the insured's behalf, to negotiate with the insurer, and make offers of boxes of steaks,to absorbing the insured's deductible.
A: Acting on the insureds behalf may or may not constitute acting as a Public Adjuster and may or may not be a regulated activity, depending on which state you are working in. It helps to know the local laws so you can speak from a position of confidence. Most times if you are confident, fair and accurate, The insured will know it.
Q: Another IA I know, says that I'm making to much work out of these hail assignments. His philosophy is, if you see any indication that hail may have been in the area, "give them the whole roof". Is this is the common procedure for handling hail claims?
A: I'm sure there will be additional discussion on this. It could be a topic all its own. To my way of thinking, "hail in the area" is no reason at all to pay a claim. If this were the case they could pay claims over the phone with no inspection. That is not adjusting a claim it is adjusting a zip code  Paying for the entire roof may be faster, easier, and generate no insured disputes, but adjusters are paid to do one thing... be accurate.
Just my thoughts,
Ric Vitiello
Benchmark Services, Inc.
http://www.benchmark-services.com |
Steve W
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 2:16 am: | |
I greatly appreciate the response to my post. However, I'm not sure if the answers given are something I can hang my hat on.
Does a loss of granuals constitute direct physical damage to the shingles, and thus require the shingles to be replaced? And if so, how many granuals have to be missing?
Are hail dents in the aluminum roof vents, vent caps, and/or valleys sufficient evidence of probable hail damage to the shingles?
How do you determine whether the hail was hard or soft?
Do 7,9,11,13,or15 hits per test square, per slope, constitute grounds for replacement of that particular slope?
I adjust claims for small mutual insurance companies, and sorry to say, they usually have few if any guidelines. The idea of one of their staff adjuster going out into the field would be a foreign concept.
After a July hail storm I was finding no significant hail damage on my assignments,but the Farmers adjusters were replacing every roof around me. Am I missing something?
Another problem: By the time I get to the hail area, usually 48 hours, the streets are lined with the signs from roofers from all over the country. They sign the insured up to let them act on the insured's behalf, to negotiate with the insurer, and make offers of boxes of steaks,to absorbing the insured's deductible.
Another IA I know, says that I'm making to much work out of these hail assignments. His philosophy is, if you see any indication that hail may have been in the area, "give them the whole roof". Is this is the common procedure for handling hail claims? |
Ric Vitiello (Ricvitiello)
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2001 - 1:47 am: | |
This past winter we were priviledged to present hail damage assessment training at the CADO conference in Biloxi, MS. Although our seminars are tailored to the needs of the client and are normally presented for insurance carriers and claims vendors at their sites, our pictorial training manual is available for private purchase. It includes photos and descriptions of various hail and non-hail blemishes on various roofing materials, and is designed to be used as a tool to assist in making correct determinations by explaining the specific characteristics of hail and non-hail blemishes.
Ric Vitiello, president
Benchmark Services, Inc.
Roofing Consultants
Hail Damage Assessment Appraisers/Trainers
http://www.benchmark-services.com |
Chuck Deaton
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2001 - 7:24 pm: | |
I have to agree that this is not "insignificant". I make my living doing this and having bait and shells depends on doing it right and getting paid.
I will submit some 35 mm's to the project as I see fit and I ask that others do the same.
Several sections are needed, Composition Shingles, Asphalt Shingles, Wood, diferent styles of tile and Slate.
Photos of partial replacements and tearoffs would be good. As would a commercial section |
Ghostbuster (Ghostbuster)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2001 - 10:22 am: | |
Nahhh, this is not insignificant. This is our bread and butter, real world stuff. Step back a second and realize that hail damage is physical impact damage.
The damage inflicted on the common 3 tab comp shingle is dependant on several factors;
1) The age and/or condition of the shingle.
2) The size of the hail.
2) The composition of the hail, i.e., hard or soft.
4) The pitch of the roof slope.
5) The damage requirements as dictated by the carrier supervisor, that are subject to change at any given moment.
Generally, we like to see large bruises and dents in the shingle faces. (They make the prettiest pictures.) When it gets down to isolated granule chunks being dislodged, it may well be time to have the carrier supervisor get up off that comfortable chair and ride out into the field with you for a reinspection. After all, he/she needs to breath some fresh air and get away from the phones for awhile.
As for roofers that mark up a roof, they earn my severe hatred. It is ONLY our job to determine the extent of damage to a roof, NOT theirs! It is ONLY their job to work on the roof. For them to transgress the line and interfere with MY/OUR investigation by vandilzing the evidence we seek is one thing I will not tolerate!
We need to be able to view the roof in an untouched state after the storm. Any roofers foot traffic on that roof jeopardizes the Insureds potential of recovery. There will be plenty of time for you boys to jump that roof, AFTER we have been out there. |
Claimsranger
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2001 - 10:09 am: | |
I have been working on a workbook/folder of photos for about 2 years now that graphically depict what constitutes hail damage to composition shingles, wood shingles/shakes and what is mfg. defect, wear, tear and age and different guidelines that the major carriers utilize to determine replacement vs. repair. SF gave me a short one when I attended their roof school. It wasn't very comprehensive but it really stopped a large number of arguments w/gypsy roofers and explained to the PH's what constituted the damage to their roof or home. Someone sort of got away with it and the 2nd one I had I gave away. 4 photos per page, laminated and captioned. Still working on it since I need 35mm photos. Got some good ones from this summer's hail storm in central Tx. No wood though. Once I get it put together, I will post that it is ready for distribution. If any of yall have 35's of mfg defect or wear and tear(age) and some good ones of wood shakes/shingles to add to the collection, I would sure appreciate it if you would e-mail me and I'll give you my snail mail address so I can finish the thing.IMHO I believe it would be a terrific tool for IA's when working hail storms. Yall let me know what you think of the idea. |
Steve W
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2001 - 8:21 am: | |
Being new to the adjusting arena, I would appreciate some information on hail damage, as it relates to composition shingles, under a homeowners policy. After a hailstorm, the majority of the roofs I inspect, it is easy to determine if they have obvious damage attributable to hail. The problem comes when,I inspect a roof and find small sections of the shingles with one or two granuals missing and only a tiny bit of the asphalt bed is exposed.
My dilemma is usually compounded by the fact that the gypsy roofing contractor has already been on the roof and has informed the insured that there is substantial damage. Evidenced by a lot of x's or o's on the roof.
Are there any guidelines, as to how significant the damage has to be, to justify replacing the entire roof or a section of slope of the roof?
How do you tell how much damage is due to hail, when the shingles are 20+ years old and should have been replaced five years ago?
Are there any publications or workshops available that address hail damage as it relates to the coverage under a homeowners policy?
I realize that this post is insignificant in comparison to what happened at the WTC, but any help would be greatly appreciated. |
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