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Chuck Deaton (Chuck)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 1999 - 1:45 pm: | 
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Fortunately certification is a fact of life. The professionals in this game do not want uncertified, unprofessional adjusters handling claims. I want certification. If you have the knowledge, certification is no step. I wish that some independent agency would take on the certification chore. I wish that companies would only hire certified adjusters and set a appropriate pay scale. If some independent agency taught classes, certified and issued a credit type card with qualifications stored, when an adjuster showed up at a storm site, the grain could be seperated from the chaf. |
Tom
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 1999 - 1:57 pm: |
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I live in a state that requires 12 hours of continuing education every year just to keep my license active. Every other year or so, I go to a seminar to keep my Flood license up to date. Then there are the seminars that the various vendors insist that we attend, and of course there are differnet educational requirements for keeping a license active in other states that may or may not also count towards keeping the license in my home state active. All of these things are a requirement to keep active in the business.
It seems that every time I turn around, another company wants me to drive 1000 miles at my expense to go to some school or other and take another test or two (or 5), so that I can be "approved" to work their claims. However, with one notable exception, the companies that I have seen requiring certification are doing so because they cannot find enough qualified adjusters. The it might be well if these companies would look at the achedules that they are using to pay us, and the way IA's are treated by their personel. Could it be that the reason that they cannot seem to attract seasoned adjusters is that those of us that have options will not work for sub-standard wages or allow ourselves to be put in a stiuation where we are not treated like the professionals that we are? Think about it. |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 1999 - 1:59 pm: |
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Chuck stop for a minute and think about what you are saying. I have a question for you when you are referring to professionals, are you referring to carrier & adjusting firm claim managers or are you referring to seasoned veterans. If you are referring to seasoned veterans then I would have to agree with you. I find that the majority of problems occurring in the field after a storm are primarily due to unqualified adjusters or agents acting like adjusters adjusting claims improperly. I personally have experienced more problems handling claims after a staff adjuster makes that initial contact & provides the insured with an advance payment. Not to omit the IA side I have also experienced the same results on this side of the business as well. If however, you are referring to carrier & adjusting firm claim managers then I do not share your opinion. For example do you remember when State Farm first started their certification testing. It began just prior to holding their first testing session in Mobile Al. for IA's. State Farm tested their entire staff of claims adjusters. I remember the first day everyone was talking about how difficult it was going to be to pass State Farm's Five tests & become certified by State Farm. It was common knowledge that the majority of staff adjuster's took and failed the certification tests. I took & passes all the tests on the first try. Am I being called for State Farm work "No". Now I will tell you why. State Farm Claims managers & supervisors do not what seasoned veterans for many reasons. One; They are intimated by seasoned veterans they can not tell to go out and handle claims just any ole way. Two; well one kind of sums it all up. Instead what I see these so called company certifications doing is dividing all IA's into the following categories: 1. New bees 2. Individuals with limited knowledge & abilities & 3. Seasoned Veterans
New bees; An individual who may or may not provide a good work product, not knowing any better will believe anything told them & will do everything they are told, easily keep in line through the use of fear and intimation tactics.
Individuals with limited knowledge & abilities; An individual who may or may not provide a good work product, knows better but will still believe anything told them & will do almost everything they are told, still fairly easy to keep in line through the use of fear and intimation tactics.
Seasoned Veterans; Will produce an excellent work product (this will make the claims managers for both the carriers & adjusting firms look bad for hiring mostly New bees and Individuals with limited knowledge & abilities), knows the policy and will vary only with written instructions (really gets the claims managers mad because they are unable to shed the blame onto the IA when the ?*#@* hits the fan), will not commit unfair claims practices no matter how much fear and intimation tactics are used.
Now maybe you can understand why "Adjuster Certification" is a joke & why real adjuster certification will never happen. If you understand the "Peter Principle" then you can understand what is really going on in the industry. My best advice to you would be to find an adjusting firm that will not allow itself to fall into this trap & contracts with carries that do not conduct bad faith business practices on a routine basis. I'm sure if you look you will find good firms. They are not often the largest, but are in the majority. Big is not always better. Seldom is. As for starting a Certification Program you may be wasting you time & effort. Go adjust till you bust.
Concerned Adjuster |
R.D. Hood
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 1999 - 5:36 pm: |
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Concerned Adjuster has opened yet another can of the wiggly creatures. IMHO, He is correct in the assessment of the classifications and also the "facts of life" on the test results of one carrier. This then presents an extremely difficult situation for A) The carrier, (can they, or do they wish to, control the product) B) The vendor company, (same question + what does it cost them , percentage wise, to hire the better people?) and finally C) The extremely talented, seasoned adjuster, (of whom there are less than 300 in the entire country, again IMHO) whom do they work for, and at what risk to themselves? The ones that refuse to captiluate, will be called feces stirrers by the vendors and /or carriers, be placed at the bottom of the lists, and suffer a loss of income for doing the right thing. Unless,and until, this industry polices itself, the facts of life shall not change. We all must seek out our own comfort level. If we choose to accept the task, and live with ourselves, thats our decision. As it is our right to refuse to bend over and "Just take it". |
Agreed
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 1999 - 5:37 pm: |
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And to think how often I was told I was full of it when I made similiar comments. |
Disagree
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 1999 - 5:38 pm: |
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Both of you think a little. A seasoned adjuster is always picked over one that isn't unless there are other problems with the seasoned adjuster such as attitude or something else causing the carrier or firm to reject him first. I will always pick my men this way and anything short will get the firm and carrier in a world of hurt. Think about it! |
Darryl Martin
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 1999 - 5:40 pm: |
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I have to agree with "disagree". As someone who is in the position to call out adjusters and as someone who is involved with the carriers, "I have never heard, nor have has it ever been intimated, that we should not use the most qualified adjuster available".
It would be counterproductive for us to engage the services of someone less qualified when a more qualified individual is available. I will be the first to tell you that I look at more than just years as an adjuster to decide who gets the call. Some of the things I look at, in no particular order are:
1. Experience, 2. Flexibility, 3. Location in relation to the Cat site, 4.Ability to work uder stressful conditions, 5. Do we owe this adjuster an immediate call out due to something that happened at his last site, 6. People skills, 7. Personal situation of the adjuster that might make it important that we get him out as soon as possible.
These are not all the things I take into consideration but some of many. I take seriously that responsibility that allows me to affect someone's livelihood. So does everyone else at our company. Every adjuster we send out impacts the livelihood of every other adjuster we have working with us along with the financial stability of our company. It is therefore ludicrous to think we would not send out the best person available, all other things equal.
As an aside, where can I find information or a list of the 300 qualified adjusters? |
John Johnson
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 1999 - 5:41 pm: |
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Chuck's proposal has tremendous merit. It is an idea whose time is here and should be thoroughly explored. Existing associations such as the Independent Garageowner's Association (IGA) and the Automotive Services Association (ASA) grew from a proposal such as Chuck has made. The IGA and ASA have done a lot for their members, including but not limited to access to reasonable group medical coverages and many other amenities...as catastrophe adjusters we certainly could make use of reasonable amenities.
I would like to see this proposal "talked-up". I would invest my time and money to travel to a convenient location to hash out a draft proposal of orginization. Since Chuck suggested the idea, his city would seem appropriate for such a meeting. |
Chuck Deaton
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 1999 - 5:42 pm: |
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The trouble with "real" certification, "real" as opposed to the "joke" certification described by some posts to this page, is that "real" certification requires knowledge. Anybody who has been adjuster for any period of time knows that knowledge wise this is a wide profession. "Real" certification requires determining the breadth of an adjusters' knowledge and that determination requires a series of tests and a system for administering them. At the present certification, in the form of state licenses, approved adjuster lists, company certification, flood licenses and experience is a mish mash. I think that something needs to be done, but what? |
R.D. Hood
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 08, 1999 - 5:43 pm: |
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Chuck, This has been a serious thorn in the sides of all of those that wish to perpetuate the trade, achive some degree of acknowledgement for their efforts, and to stand apart from the "maddeneing crowd". To this end there have been numerous suggestions and little effort expended. Last year, a suggestion was made to have a national test administered by someone, or a group of carriers and / or vendors and have all interested parties take a test and be graded accordingly. I believe in JUST certiufication, like to be an NFIP large loss commercial flood approved adjuster, you know what that requires. But speaking to many that have taken some of the other tests, it appears that they are minimal, at best. I know back a few years ago when the largest carrier had 5 separate tests to take, less that 5% of all taking them passed all 5 in the first sitting, and those tests, at least for me , were NOT that hard. For that matter , some of the ones that we all have taked were a walk in the park. So there may not be an easy answer to discovering who is and who is not certified, qualified, tested, approved and most of all able, to do the job. |
Chuck Deaton
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 6:46 pm: |
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To anybody that has experience in this business it is clear that it is possible to be experienced and qualified in one area and have absolutely no experience and be totally unqualified in another. At the moment I am working WC and Long haul trucking claims. Last year I did personal auto, PD and Liability, and a lot of residential property, mostly wind, but I also did flood. I dare to say that most adjusters are not qualified to do and could not get hired to work WC or Long Haul trucking. In fact most CAT adjusters never do anything beyond wind and hail, mostly minor residential wind and hail claims. I think Dave is right in his estimate that there are less than 300 qualified adjusters doing CAT work. Actually I don't think that there that many. The reason that I favor some sort of standardized certification is that I think that a potential employer should be able to readily indentify a qualified CAT adjuster and basically what that CAT adjuster qualified to do. I think that the fact that I and other have Big Red certification largely attest to our ability to handle small residential wind and hail claims. What I think is needed is a series of tests with portable certification documents that identify the bearer as having successfully completed some type of certification in a particular area. |
Jim Flynt
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 6:58 pm: |
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RD and Chuck I agree with much of what you say, but I would be amazed if you could show me a list of more than around 100 highly qualified and knowledgeable catastrophe adjusters out there (and I am excluding carrier staff adjusters in this equation).
Let's not confuse "certified" adjusters with qualified adjusters.
Finally, I think there is a "recognized certification" already in place. The national CPCU designations and exams (10 part series with ten 4 hour essay exams). Were these tests given to all that claim to be cat adjusters, I doubt 25 could pass all 10 tests (which is required for the CPCU designation). |
Tom Joyce
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 1999 - 11:44 pm: |
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To bring in the complete series of CPCU exams as a basis to determine qualification is a bit much. Our role in as much as a cat situation is as much technical, ie methods of construction, repairs, costs, as it is policy interpetation. |
Jim Flynt
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 1999 - 11:51 am: |
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Tom, I agree that using all 10 of the CPCU exams as a criteria is probably "overkill." However, I do believe that it is widely recognized by the insurance industry and "should" be representative of qualified professionalism at the highest level.
You are correct also that the CPCU exams would not and do not test for other technical knowledge, i.e., construction, repair methods, estimate writing, and costs.
My point was intended to show that (as an example)the CPCU personal lines exam is more comprehensive and more precisely tests for knowledge, than any of the carrier "certification" exams. Anyone who can pass the CPCU personal lines exam should/would have a fairly thorough policy knowledge of the various homeowners forms out there as well as endorsements.
The key to ever having a "recognized certification" out there which would be honored by the carriers and the various states, is to have the larger carriers (and their trade association groups) as well as the various state insurance commissioners (NAIC) involved and leading the charge for uniformity and reciprocity. Personally, I doubt that will ever happen as too many interests have their own turf to protect.
In the interim, perhaps the best we can do is strive to achieve the AIC (which you and I both have) designation as well as the CPCU. It is not a perfect system, but it is well recognized and honored by the American insurance industry. |
Tom Joyce
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 12:47 am: |
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One of the problems with our business is that it is hard to stay focused on the necessary and important education requirements. I started the CPCU years ago, got sidetracked and never got into the grove again. Working as an independant you are not part of a system which rewards educational achievements with promotions and raises. It has to be done with the hope of recognition and better work offers. |
Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 10:16 am: |
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I did not mind the certifications with State Farm or any company. I have tests anxieties and it was rough. I know what I am capable of in the field and I would produce top quality service. I was lead to believe as soon as I passed two of them a company would put me to work immediately. Out of pocket testing fees, etc and 4 months later, I am still not working. That company has been contacted twice and asking "When" but I get no where with them. I have decided that first come first served when a storm does come. The companies that give me the chance - I will forever be indebit to them. I still remain optimistic, I know its a slow time right now. |
Jim Flynt
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 11:54 am: |
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This is in response to "Anonymous" post.
We all understand "test anxiety" but knowing and being able to provide a detailed, factual, and comprehensive answer on policy questions, the claims process, or repair techniques is no less stressful in a catastrophe environment than in a more mundane "testing environment." YOU may feel you KNOW what you are capable of, but the adjusting firm and insurance company have no way of KNOWING your "capabilities" without seeing satisfactory grade results through their certification testing or evidence of successful achievement of other insurance courses or designations (AIC, Vale, Certificate in General Insurance,etc.).
My guess is that other than your having passed (if required) your state's adjuster licensing exam, your only other "claim to fame" is in having taken two certification exams of a certain carrier (Big Red by any chance?). If that is correct, then you have a long way to go before you are ready and capable of being sent to any storm as an adjuster, possibly save and except a Midwest hail storm.
In my opinion, one is properly prepared and qualified as an adjuster, when he/she can be called upon to handle the damage claim for the President of the Insurance Company or it's Top Agent. Do you really believe you would fare any better on "passing that exam" as you would with the certification exam?
Do yourself and the "Insureds" a great favor, and go get a lot more education and training before you go out half cocked and ill prepared and getting in over your head. |
Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 12:51 pm: |
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I always knew there was a god (or gods) over looking this profession.You know who you are.Now I know there is from the tact and brown nosing that goes on in this industry,whether outright or sublimily here on this board.It will not be long according to some opinions (evidently) until the list of the only truly qualified cat adjusters( which i believe was stated to be about 300 originaly, then was discussed again could be less than 100) will be only the magnifcent 12 or 11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2- then only One?????? Of course birds of a feather flock together. |
Jim Flynt
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 1:15 pm: |
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Unless someone is out there "killing off" the good adjusters, then the list of qualified adjusters should be GOING UP IN NUMBERS AND NOT DOWN. The point is not whether there are 300, 100, or 500 highly qualified adjusters out there, but that THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH QUALIFIED ADJUSTERS out there.
I detect a great deal of anger and resentment directed toward those who have made the effort and commitment to better themselves with ongoing education, training, and equipment upgrades.
I am also guessing that the previous writer has been sitting at home for quite some time without making any money from adjusting and cannot understand why he/she is not being called for assignment. I'll bet the answer could be found by looking at their past work product and storm reviews as well as a quick glance at their resume.
The Scottish poet Robert Burns said it best: "O wad some power the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as ithers see us."
Finally, why do you have to hide behind an "Anonymous" posting? Are you afraid for us to see and know who you are? |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 1999 - 5:14 pm: |
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As far as my ,Quote" Storm reveiw", It is damn equal or better than yours. I do not need your self serving advice or your big ego to tell me anything.As far as my anonomous status,you must understand that I am not a damn fool.(BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING)As far as being Home,(I dont want to compare myself to these HUMPPP!! GODS) anyone can take bull crap assignments for those who are on vacation and etc.You know and I know that there is nothing going on major anywhere as of today(SALT LAKE CITY, So What,I am on standby also,experience and research tells me that there is probaly not much there except for the locals) Cut the crap.As far as the new people are concerned,Folks let me tell you the truth.Yes, It is true that the old timers(not necessarily the best)will be called up front. The old adage of " It aint what you know, Its who you know" How ever let me tell you this, Hang tough if this your calling.Time will tell.Been there, done that. My Resume would stand beside any on this board and I feel for the lot of you. The big one will come and also your chance to start. Good Luck! |
Don Elkinton
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 13, 1999 - 12:55 am: |
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I believe it is necessary to state again that by far the number one trait that benefits the IA is "people skills". Yes you can get certified which certainly enhances your opportunity to work. But isn't longevity the ultimate goal? I have not been in the business nearly as long as many. Having acquired skills in other professions and adapting them to adjusting. Nothing speaks more highly than an excellent work ethic and attitude. (Before anyone calls me names, realize I have taken it on the chin for accurately reporting on this board).
My desire is to assist others and recommend ways to enhance ones position. I confess this is for selfish reasons. Most notably, to strengthen all of our positions as IA's. Together we can help the insured's, save the carrier's money and provide an excellent income for our families. By becoming an asset to the industry, we become a priceless commodity.
Thanks for the space. |
Roger Eyman
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 1999 - 3:18 pm: |
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Well Don, some adjusters work in the industry for 20 years and still just have the same skills they start out with. Having 20 years experience does not necessarily mean that these people know what they are doing. Having worked all summer in a position of assigning claims out I can say with authority that a lot of the garbage we get back from so called seasoned adjusters isn't worth hanging on the out house wall and many of these are in States that still require licensing, i.e. State Certification. |
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