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Last Post 01/15/2008 12:46 AM by  rbryanhines
Is the Insurance Carrier responsible for sheathing?
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HuskerCat
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12/19/2007 9:08 PM

One has to agree with Ray on the old practice of layovers, whether it was chosen by the insured or "allowed" by the carrier.  This method of repair led to the more recent complete expensive tear-offs and re-sheathing that we have all seen.  Another post by Ed Fako describes one of these "Dagwood" sandwich roofs, where there 2 or 3 old layers of roofing hidden by newer drip edge flashing.  It hasn't been that long ago that I encountered 9 (yes, NINE) layers of shingles on a dwelling roof.  It was in Council Bluffs, IA, after the 2001 hail storms that hit the Omaha NE/CB IA metro area.  The original cedar shakes were covered with asbestos tiles, then a layer of asphalt shingles.  Then someone had installed new drip edge all around, plus 2 more layers of asphalt or comp shingles....then at some later date a raised molding was installed on the gable ends and another application of drip edge along the rake after installing 3/8" plywood.   Additional layers of asphalt and/or comp shingles were installed as layovers after that.  That loss required 2 reinspections, because the roofer didn't pull off the gable crown molding until after we had discovered the 2nd set of layover.  Unbelievable!! And the top layer was probably at least 10 years old.  I guess that says something about rafter strength on old lumber.

In any event, the carrier paid for tear-off of all layers and resheeted the space board decking to facilitate installing new comp shingles.  The tear-off and dump costs on this large old 2-story house cost 5x the cost to reshingle it.

Including the cost of re-sheathing on my part has always been at the direction of the carrier, regardless of whether I was staff or independent.  And most of these were in NE, IA, KS, MO, SD.  So whether it be law or company practice, I did what the carrier instructed.

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Spudder
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12/26/2007 1:07 PM

During the 2004 hurricanes here in S. Florida, any sheathing that was not plywood or 1 x planks had to be replaced, No OSB board was allowed in the designated Hi Wind areas, all items had to be corrected and brought up to the new 2001 FBC. Use that as a guideline I would think that the Insurer would replace the sheathing and find out why the boards became brittle, I have been building and remodeling residences for over 30 years and never ran into a brittle problem, however since we don't have heating in this area I would have to do some research about why the wood would get brittle, it sounds a little more than just no ventilation. I was reading an article from a lumber and timber manufacture, they blame a constant moisture content of 20% will cause a fungus that we call dry rot, this fungus eventually turns the wood planking brittle and then into powder.

 

 

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okclarryd
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12/26/2007 8:33 PM


It's age, not ventilation. Age causes things to become brittle.

I know this for a fact.

I am old. I recently fell and broke my arm. I am brittle.

Age = brittle.

I ventilate regularly and I'm still brittle so I don't think that has anything to do with it.

Larry D Hardin
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Medulus
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12/28/2007 7:45 PM

When I was being trained by The Farm way back in the golden age of claim handling (only about fifteen years ago) they used the "nailable surface" rule. The sheathing was replaced if it was required to provide a "nailable surface" for the shingle replacement.  If they have stopped using that rule, I can't imagine how you would provide a roof covering that cannot be installed.  It is a neccessary operation to perform repairs under certain circumstances which, it seems to me, a good claim rep will find a way to cover and with which a good carrier will not have a problem.

Steve Ebner CPCU AIC AMIM

"With great power comes great responsibility." (Stanley Martin Lieber, Amazing Fantasy # 15 August 1962)
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Leland
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12/28/2007 9:03 PM
It is not unusual in California for real old homes to have VERY hard dried out framing. Sometimes you have to drill a pilot hole to be able to sink a framing nail- otherwise the nail will bend over and over. Sometimes if I am doing a repair I might just use a metal strap and some screws rather than kill myself trying to hammer in a nail that won't go in. Termites will not eat this wood.

I think it's odd that this forum has so many people agreeing with the possibility of sheathing being dried out and brittle when just a week or two ago I mentioned in another forum that it sometimes make sense for the carrier to replace brittle sheathing and the responses from other adjusters was they never heard that before. My house is from the 1920's and the decking is brittle.

Also I wonder if a lot of the space decking on old homes might be some kind of cheaper wood that is more brittle? It doesn't always look like doug fir to me and it seems to split easier than doug fir does. Anybody know?

I think so much of the differences of opinion are due to regional differences in weather, materials, state laws etc.
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HuskerCat
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12/28/2007 11:04 PM

I was once told by a wise old man that houses built prior to the 30's were constructed from the best hardwood lumber available, with the "heart" of the trunk used for the main support beams and rafters/trusses.  With the boom of industry, building construction & paper usage began to deplete some of the lumber sources.  New timber was fertilized to hasten the growing time, and other varieties of trees that grow faster became more utilized for construction.  The faster the tree grows, the less hard the"heart wood".   How much truth there is to this, I don't know.

I too have experienced the bent nails you described when re-using lumber taken out of old barns that we tore down on my father's farm.   It was also dang near impossible to pull the old square nails out of this same lumber. 

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Tom Toll
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12/29/2007 8:34 AM

Many years ago my grandfather was a builder during the off season farming time. Of the 30 or so homes he built, all are still standing, much over 100 years old, still square, still in excellent condition. He used primarily oak in his framing and pine for his sheathing. To my knowledge none of the pine has gotten brittle. His interior walls and ceilings had 1x8 ponderosa pine nailed to the studs and ceiling joists, then wire and plaster. Of the houses I have been fortunate to look at, none of the walls have been changed out to drywall material and the plaster is still in good shape. He built square of rectangular homes, with very few exterior wall elevation changes. He said that wasted too much material and I agree with his concept. All of his roofs were gabled with no valleys and three foot soffits.

Wood is not what it used to be. Pine is grown with spacing about 2 feet apart. They cut the trees before they have completely matured, so the heart of the wood is not fully established. Today it is difficult to buy wood that is straight like it used to be, so you have to cull out the bad pieces. When I built my first home in 1969, I have no problem with culling out bad pieces of wood. I also used the same techinique that my grandfather used, ponderosa pine on all interior stud walls and ceiling joists, but I used drywall, 5/8", instead of plaster. I made sure, as grandad did, that all my corners were perfectly squared and true. Times have changed for construction, certainly not for the better.Wood quality has changed, certainly not for the better.

Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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rickhans
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01/01/2008 1:48 AM
There has been a lot of good info here that in my opinion is very accurate. I am going to add a few more facts that have not been mentioned. As some of you know, I have been remodeling and renovating old historic houses for a number of years. I have never had brittle decking and have re-roofed quite a few houses between 80 and 100 yrs old. They have "shiplap" decking made of fir or pine. They overlap to eliminate an open joint. Normally all of the walls also have the same shiplap which actually holds the house together, especially when balloon framed.

No house can have all of the decking on a slope removed, especially a balloon framed house, because the framing can, and will, jump out of square and can't be straightened. If re-decking is required over shiplap, the best method is to put 1/2" osb over the shiplap and use screw guns to put it down if it is too brittle to nail into. Otherwise, ring or screw shank nails should be used for the decking. If it is in too bad shape to overlay, then the decking should be cut out with a 4x8 sheet being nailed down before the next 4x8 section is cut out.

In 1994 (in Texas, but I may be off date slightly), State Farm still considered cedar shingles to be a sufficient deck to nail composition shingles on and would not pay for a tear off unless the cedar was also damaged. Composition roofs that were done in this manner prior to the 1994 hail storms were being torn up by hail because of the air gaps where the comp. shingles overlaped the warped wood shingles. There were enough complaints made to the TDI that they issued a ruling to State Farm that they had to tear off the cedar shingles and pay for the decking before installing comp shingles. All carriers since that time that I know of have paid for the cedar tear off. I believe that I even got a copy of the ruling around that time because some carriers were still arguing that an overlay was ok until the adjusters learned of the TDI order.

I do agree, however, that if the deck (planks or shiplap) is in too poor of shape, and not caused by the event that tore up the shingles, that tearing it off should not be covered, but I believe that most carriers would pay for overlaying 1/2" OSB.
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Linda
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01/14/2008 11:25 AM
Very interesting thread. No one has mentioned the fact that a wood shingle roof over spaced decking/lathes is virtually self ventilating. Then along comes our modern times and we put solid decking on along with comp shingles. Ever wonder what that does to the original ventilation of the structure? It is almost impossible to install enough soffit vents to match the equivalent of the wood shingles and spaced decking natural ventilation. The old timers knew a structure had to breathe just like they knew every board had a crown.

Studies were done in the Southwest several years ago where the summers are hotter than Hades and the end result was the energy used to cool the same house before and after the solid decking was installed was at least 33% more after. Heat still rises and either must escape through ventilation or you spend the money to try to cool it. The more modern we become, the less we seem to use common sense.

The State of Texas has adopted the International Building Code which requires a "nailable surface" not only for the roofing but also when attaching siding, windows, etc. Whether you can pursuade your carrier to pay for it may determine just how well you can write a report if they waffle on the issue.

I have a relative who lives in "Hail Alley" in Texas. As a result, there probably has been at least 8 roofs put on that house over the past 25 years. The decking looked like Swiss cheese when the last one was put on. Regardless of the age of the decking when you comprimise the integrity of the decking to that extent, you have disaster waiting to happen. Whether you screw it, glue it or try to nail it you still have Swiss cheese! Not a comforting thought when a 200 pound man starts walking all over it....

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brighton
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01/14/2008 1:35 PM

Growing up in Texas, I remember well wood roofs. While you are correct about great ventilation, they are also one of the greatest fire hazards known. I remember well seeing wood roofs ignite and and within 5 minuets of ignition floating thru the neighborhood landing on other wood roofs. That was the reason so many cities have banned them from new construction and if over 25-50% damaged (depending on locale),code requirements say to replace with other forms of roofing over solid decking. Sometimes life safety and preservation of property takes priority over being green.

As you state,  Texas has adopted the IBC. If the insured has code upgrade coverage the local building inspector can mandate new decking if in their opinion the existing surface is unfit for use. Then a carrier will usually without challange pay for decking.

Rocke Baker
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rbryanhines
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01/15/2008 12:46 AM
Linda stated:
"Very interesting thread. No one has mentioned the fact that a wood shingle roof over spaced decking/lathes is virtually self ventilating. Then along comes our modern times and we put solid decking on along with comp shingles. Ever wonder what that does to the original ventilation of the structure? It is almost impossible to install enough soffit vents to match the equivalent of the wood shingles and spaced decking natural ventilation. The old timers knew a structure had to breathe just like they knew every board had a crown.

Studies were done in the Southwest several years ago where the summers are hotter than Hades and the end result was the energy used to cool the same house before and after the solid decking was installed was at least 33% more after. Heat still rises and either must escape through ventilation or you spend the money to try to cool it. The more modern we become, the less we seem to use common sense."

FYI - Wood shingled roofs installed correctly with interlaced split felt is not "virtually self ventilating". Also, soffit vents are the intake component and roof vents are the exhaust component of the ventilation cycle. The size of both components must be equal or the smaller of the two will limit the amount of air that can be recycled (vented) unless a power vent is used.
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