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Last Post 07/21/2009 10:52 PM by  BobH
Join ARISE Association for Roof Inspection Safety Empowerment
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Catsvstrained
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06/28/2009 6:22 AM
CatSvs Trained
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Catsvstrained
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06/28/2009 6:26 AM
This is a weighted tennis ball attached to a bungee cord w/ a 45ft vertical capabillity. Also very effective, not quite as accurate or as loud as LL II.
CatSvs Trained
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BobH
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06/28/2009 8:07 PM
Posted By Catsvstrained on 28 Jun 2009 06:19 AM
This is a LL II Line Launcher that can place "Slick Line" over a four story Bld. Very effective, extremely accurate with padded projectile.
Wow - I would imagine you have to make certain your line is not going to get tangled up when you shoot that 22 caliber charge on the launcher.
Bob H
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Snappy
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06/29/2009 12:41 AM

Keven -- Nobody's trying to get any of your  information for free.

I asked BobH some questions about the pictures he posted. He

answered them.

 

But  I will ask you this, is there a good 1 man, 1 rope, portable anchor,

roping-up system, in your opinion? Or must it be a 2 man team effort

to be safe.

 

Snappy

 

Drink up Shriners.

 

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Catsvstrained
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06/29/2009 9:02 AM
 
Slick line is an arborist line that is tangle free if you handle it appropriately. Its exterior is kind of waxy (1.8mm) and I store it simply laid on top of itself in a milk crate (has the ability to twist real bad if wrapped around anything), line will all fly out of crate w/o tangles when shot over roof.
 
   Yes Snappy there is an outstanding one man "roping-up" system which is called a "Static" belay system that most people who I train prefer greatly over a "Two Person" belay team. Static belays are normally set up using one rope anchored on both sides of bld and  incorporate portable anchors on homes w/ no natural anchors.
 
Belay - A climbing term meaning to make secure at the end of a rope.
 
The Two Person roof inspection Belay system is the only process that State Farm trains their employees on as it is based on their original training program developed twenty years ago and never changed or modified which is a shame because many new products have been developed since that time.
 
In my opinion, One-man Static belays are more efficient and involve less risk than two-man teams because they require less equipment which translates less potential for equipment failure AND less potential for mis-communication between climber and ground belay person.
 
This is the fundamental difference between my R&H program and the R&H programs at State Farm, Pilot, US Staffing, ERT etc... Their programs were dead from the moment that they implemented them while mine continuously evolves with OSHA, ANSI & ACCT compliance modifications, information that is gathered and evaluated on roof inspection accident reports, changes in the storm claims industry, research and testing of emerging products...  Bob took my class several months ago and already several changes have been implemented like:
 
New line placement devices
&
The way that static ropes, low stretch ropes & dynamic ropes are defined.   Just to name a few
CatSvs Trained
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ChuckDeaton
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06/29/2009 10:55 PM
I carry a bladder that can be filled with water and use it as a point to tie off. Water, at 8 pounds per gallon, in a large fabric bladder can be used to arrest a fall.
"Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
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BobH
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06/29/2009 11:33 PM
Posted By Snappy on 29 Jun 2009 12:41 AM

...But  I will ask you this, is there a good 1 man, 1 rope, portable anchor,

roping-up system, in your opinion? Or must it be a 2 man team effort

to be safe.
Chuck has been doing Rope-Harness for years, and has posted in the past that he uses a 1 man system, not 2.
Posted By Kevin
Slick line is an arborist line that is tangle free if you handle it appropriately. Its exterior is kind of waxy (1.8mm) and I store it simply laid on top of itself in a milk crate
Awesome. I must admit that the grief I had was with the more common "parachute cord" and not the slick line.  I believe the slick line is available at http://www.wesspur.com/ and I am going to have to try it.

Posted By Kevin
...an outstanding one man "roping-up" system which is called a "Static" belay system that most people who I train prefer greatly over a "Two Person" belay team. Static belays are normally set up using one rope anchored on both sides of bld and  incorporate portable anchors on homes w/ no natural anchors.
 
Yeah, after putting it to use for months that is what we evolved as well.  Having the 2nd person is still immensely helpful in pulling a messenger line from the other side of the house, tie-off, etc.  And of course measuring the perimeter runs of roof, which would free me up to get the rafter lengths.
 
I just had to fly out of state for another deployment, and like Chuck's idea because it will fold flat when the water is empty.  Of course that wasn't the first thought that crossed my mind when I read "bladder filled with water"...  but when I googled it I was amazed at the products out there.  Good find. 
Bob H
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ChuckDeaton
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06/30/2009 10:07 AM
A fuel bladder in a fishing net bag. I use some seat belt webbing I got from a junk yard and glue the joints and loops and then have it sewn at an upholstery shop. Basically free and strong.
"Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
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ChuckDeaton
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06/30/2009 10:09 AM
I also use those screw in the ground dog anchors. Two or three of them screwed in at an angle and tied to the bladder will hold, course I don't try to mountain climb, I just want to arrest a fall.
"Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
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RJortberg
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06/30/2009 3:41 PM
This is great information. Thanks. When I'm set to go to Houston, I'll attend the class as well. When I bought my gear in CO, the sales people were very difficult to talk w/ in terms of advice. They were not willling to comment about best equipment / practices under the circumstances I described because of liability, so it's tough to know the best gear to use w/o this kind of class or these comments and pics. I ended up reading a bunch of mountaineering books to figure out what to do. I still use a bowlen for almost everything, but I figure I should learn a few more knots.

I ended up getting Petzl ascenders (2), but I like the idea of the GriGri as opposed to using one ascender when walking around the ridge. The other ascender is then clipped onto the harness or put into a backpack. The GriGri makes more sense when moving around up top. I ended up getting a pet slingshot and tennis ball as well.

A few questions-

1) Are people using a vehicle bumper as one static anchor? Strengths / weakensses?

2) As opposed to the GriGri, do people use a rappel device like Black Diamond's ATC instead? The ATC does not offer the same autostop protection, but it would be easier to move around with, understanding one hand is required for the rope though. I'll probably switch to the GriGri, but I'd like to know about the non-auto stop belay devices like the ATC which seem clearly better than the ascender when moving around or for going down. The ascenders do have a reverse function, but its not very easy to use.

3) Bob- did you give up on the slingshot instead of the reel?

4) Are people using the Zorber to absorb the shock of a fall? Is that what Tony has attached between the harness and the ascender?

5) How are you stabilizing the ladder at the top? A bungie cord?

6) Do people use ladder leveling devices (like pivit - http://www.provisiontools.com/) for the base?

7) How about shoes? I use shoes like Tony's but I've thought about Tiger Paws. Not sure what works best in the rain.

8) Though I use a bowlen and an overhand knot for almost anything, are there a few other knots which are "must knows" to make life easier?

Thanks- good discussion here.

RJ





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ChuckDeaton
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06/30/2009 5:59 PM
Take a look at those felt soles that fly fishermen use. Glue them onto the bottom of a pair of boots. Several years ago I took a pair of boots, drilled holes in the soles and glued small finishing nails in. They tore up the roof, but hail had done a number on the roof anyway. I was just interested in speed and safety.

A short sheet rock screw would work, screw it in with some glue and cut it off with a Dremel tool.

I never have used a real climbing rope, kernmantel, the rope I have now is from the hardware department at Home Depot. As far as i am concerned the rope is just there to arrest when I start sliding down the slope. I buy new rope on a regular basis. Also, I like a rope with lots of stretch.
"Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
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Tim_Johnson
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06/30/2009 6:00 PM
Larry H. and I have to inspect the roof of the 7-11 for Nick Patel. It is over behind the parlour. Can we borrow some of these ropes, grippers, bladders and a 16' ladder from some of you guys??

Thanks!
Tim Johnson
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BobH
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06/30/2009 10:18 PM

Posted By RJortberg on 30 Jun 2009 03:41 PM
A few questions-

1) Are people using a vehicle bumper as one static anchor? Strengths / weaknesses?

Necessity is the mother of invention. I did it once, and made certain I had the only keys in my pocket, note on door, etc.
 
2) As opposed to the GriGri, do people use a rappel device like Black Diamond's ATC instead? 
 
 
The ATC is for a ground person to use - and my assistant would essentially use it as an absolute "hold" to anchor the line to his harness (rather than running the line out when you need slack, pulling it in when you need tension).  In the real world of noise, leaf blowers, traffic, and communicating over tall roofs, despite radios-cell phones I prefer to adjust where I am at with my own gear attached to my harness.  I like the Gri-gri and I also like the rope grab made by Gibbs (which I had not seen before meeting Kevin).  I own both of them.
 
Descending with a Gibbs  rope grab is not for the feint of heart, it is kind of an "on-off" grab without a lot of friction when you push against the cam that is "stopping" the rope.  In addition to the Petzl ascender, Petzl makes a "rope grab" called the Rescue-scender which is similar to the Gibbs device.
 
As I mentioned before the Gri-Gri will work differently depending on what rope you run through it.  I have a 10.5 mm static rope made by Bluewater that is very flexible, and runs through the Gri-Gri very easily but WILL stop you if you fall.  Easy to ascend, but takes a foot or so to "catch" when descending.  They call it 7/16 but most 7/16 line is 11mm and mine clearly says 10.5 on the end label...
 
My 11mm rope made by Sterling is very stiff, professional rescue rope and perfect for descending, very slow and controlled.  If you "let go" and observe the Gri-Gri, it will halt you within a couple inches using that 11mm stiff rope.  It is kind of a chore for ascending, but I use the stiff 11mm rope 99% of the time.  The only reason I bought that brand is I came across a ton of it at a rare discount.  It looks & feels the same as the more popular New England KMIII which you can see at this link http://www.newenglandropes.com/PRD_...160;  I believe that is what Kevin uses.
 
I would never consider using an ATC for the person climbing the roof.  You have to keep one hand on the loose end of the rope at all times when using an ATC.  that just would not work for the person climbing the roof, chalking the damage on shingles, etc.
 
In the last page I linked to 9 year old forum thread that described the GriGri.  review that, and keep in mind what he is saying, you MUST ensure that the rope is threaded the correct direction through the device.  When you change direction and go down the other slope, you MUST stop and change the direction that the rope is going through the Gri-Gri.  The same is true of any rope-grab or ascender, they are a "one-way" device and you cannot simply march up one slope and down the other side without "swapping out" the direction that the rope runs through the device.
 
 
3) Bob- did you give up on the slingshot instead of the reel?

I still have and sometimes use the slingshot.  I can "aim" better with it than the reel, but the loose line is a chore for me.  One of the guys on our team had a ladder fall on his rod & reel, he had no other solution.  I tend to hold on to tools, often find a use for them.



4) Are people using the Zorber to absorb the shock of a fall? Is that what Tony has attached between the harness and the ascender?  
Right.  in that photo Tony has a Petzl ascender at the end of the Zorber. And you can also in the photo I took of Kevin at class he has a Gibbs rope grap at the end of a Zorber http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/t...fault.aspx">on this other thread (click the link).  Most adjusters I know simply use a short loop of webbing, but a Zorber doesn't cost very much.  It is about 6 feet of "seat-belt" type material stitched together in such a way that it will gradually un-stitch if you put a sudden heavy load on it.  
 
When I get to the top of the ridge and find a stable spot to sit down, I switch over to my Gri-Gri and attach it as close to my harness as possible (without any loop of webbing or Zorber).  You will find your own style, but when I am pulling rope "out" from my Gri-Gri it is grief if the device is already 16 inches away from you.  It is different with an ascender or rope grab because the main activity there is "pulling in" toward you.

5) How are you stabilizing the ladder at the top? A bungie cord?
 
 
first of all, I always tie-off, always.  I use a pair of "quick-clamps" with about 8" capacity and prefer to clamp to solid fascia on both sides of ladder, and use about 6' of webbing to tie a few times around each ladder member and then to the clamps.  If it is a boxed-in soffit and absolutely no-where else, I will rely on the gutter nail, but sometimes you don't even get that.  I have old worn out cougar-paw pads that I save the 1/2 that still has rubber, fold it so that it is "pinching the end of the shingles", and use the clamp to force the rubber pad against the granules of the shingle.  It will never pull loose, and I tie of to 2 clamps, one near each leg of ladder.  I know that sounds bizzare, but it is better than nothing.


6) Do people use ladder leveling devices (like pivit - http://www.provisiontools.com/) for the base?
 
 
I have a 16 and 24' Werner with "Equalizer" legs.  they add a lot of weight to the ladder, for taller ladders I just find level ground...  Here is a clickable link to the thing you mentioned: http://www.provisiontools.com/ and after watching their video, I would not personally buy one.


7) How about shoes? I use shoes like Tony's but I've thought about Tiger Paws. Not sure what works best in the rain.
 
 
http://www.cougarpaws.com">www.cougarpaws.com or you can get them at http://www.bigrocksupply.com">www.bigrocksupply.com they are the only ones I use.  Tony was lazy that day and wore something else, I don't wear anything else and don't care if I burn through them.  I buy more pads.

8) Though I use a bowlen and an overhand knot for almost anything, are there a few other knots which are "must knows" to make life easier?
 
for webbing you will need a different knot - called the water knot.
Bob H
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rickhans
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06/30/2009 10:49 PM
This is a very informative topic. I have a few questions to add.  These days most of the roofs I inspect are commercial, but after being on a tall 2 story hotel in Houston, I am ready to learn about ropes. 
 
1.How do you handle a hotel roof since your rope goes up and over.  With a ridge of a few hundred feet, that would require getting off the roof and re-anchoring your line many times.  Is there a way to parallel the ridge with ropes then  tie off to it?
 
2.If so, it looks like it would only be for fall arrest and would deflect too much to use for climbing the roof.  True?
 
3.If I only do a few roofs during the year where I would need rope and harness, is it cost effective compared to renting a lift, or owning a lift as I did in the past.  hwen I would use a lift, I use a harness with lanyard attached the ring on my back but gives me enough room to walk a ways out on the roof, depending on where I could set the bucket.
 
4.What is the cost to take a R&H course and become proficient in its use? What is the cost of the ropes and harness? 
 
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RJortberg
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07/01/2009 1:16 PM
This might be the ticket for a more controlled (i.e., not on-off) descent:

http://www.ahsrescue.com/p-642-petz...ender.aspx





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BobH
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07/01/2009 9:22 PM
Check it out, see if it works for you.  Clickable link: http://www.ahsrescue.com/p-642-petz...ender.aspx
Here's what they say that I do not like:
 
Ascending the rope is possible without changing the position of the STOP by adding a footloop and a handled rope clamp / grab.
 
It would seem that the device is mainly a descender, as it's name implies. 
Update of July 27, 2009: I got my hands on one of those Petzl Stops, and it is useless for what we do on roofs.  It is for people doing vertical descent, hanging and going straight down a hole.  You cannot feed rope in-out of it the way you would need to during a roof inspection.
 
One of the nice features of a more simple device like the Petzl Rescuescender http://www.rei.com/product/471126 (very similar to Gibbs rope-grab) is that you can quickly go up the rope, and if you want to move down the slope you simply push the cam that is spring loaded to "stop" the rope, and you are free to move.  Having a rope grab that can freely move up & down, halt a fall, is a good thing.
 
I know guys that simply "hold the rope in their hands" so a rope grab is a definite step up the food chain in safety.  I like my rope grab on semi-steep roofs, but still reach for the Gri-Gri on the really steep ones because of the controlled descend.  It is almost "hydraulic" in the way it feels, compared to other methods.
 
Bob H
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BobH
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07/01/2009 9:42 PM
Posted By rickhans on 30 Jun 2009 10:49 PM
This is a very informative topic. I have a few questions to add.  These days most of the roofs I inspect are commercial, but after being on a tall 2 story hotel in Houston, I am ready to learn about ropes. 
 
1.How do you handle a hotel roof since your rope goes up and over.  With a ridge of a few hundred feet, that would require getting off the roof and re-anchoring your line many times.  Is there a way to parallel the ridge with ropes then  tie off to it?
 
 
Dunno - haven't run into that long of a ridge, longest I had was about 60 feet.  You can move around on a roof pretty easy by getting up to the ridge, and siimply walking paralel to the ridge - then placing the rope back down and making a descent down the slope.  If you had an assistant they could walk along the ground, tell them where to go with walkie-talkie or cell with headset.
 
If you were installing the shingles on a steep roof like that, as long as that, you would be using toe-boards.
 
 
2.If so, it looks like it would only be for fall arrest and would deflect too much to use for climbing the roof.  True?
 
 
If you re-position the rope now & then on the ridge, you don't get too "sideways" in relation to where you are anchored.  Ideally you want to be right under the place where the rope is going over the ridge, but sometimes it can get exciting with a very cut up roof and finding yourself being pulled sideways.
 
 
3.If I only do a few roofs during the year where I would need rope and harness, is it cost effective compared to renting a lift, or owning a lift as I did in the past.  hwen I would use a lift, I use a harness with lanyard attached the ring on my back but gives me enough room to walk a ways out on the roof, depending on where I could set the bucket.
 
 
Don't know if anyone could answer that one for you.  I think you could get outfitted for about $300.  I spent more, but I am a tool freak.
 
4.What is the cost to take a R&H course and become proficient in its use? What is the cost of the ropes and harness? 
 
 
I paid $308 for the course, declined the discount that was available because I figured if I just spent over $700 to fly in from out of state and 2 hotel stays, why screw the guy who is giving the course.  So I spent $1,000 including logistics and it gave me confidence on roof safety, which for me is priceless.


Bob H
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RJortberg
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07/01/2009 10:39 PM
Well, I think what they are saying is that the Stop Descender can be used in conjunction with a rope grab to climb a vertical rope as long as you have a stirrup attachment on the tool. (It says the same lingo about the GriGri.)  So it would act as an ascender and a descender by itself but you need something else to pull up on (the rope grab) if you are on a vertical rope- which is not the case for us.

Having just come from the Petlz website, they now have two new pieces (the IDS and the IDL) which seem to be a next generation of the GriGri and the Stop. Pretty cool video there of using the tools on a blade of a wind turbine and other examples which make our uses look tame in comparison.

http://www.petzl.com/en/pro/self-braking-descenders

(sorry, I don't know how to make a live link to that site.) Anyway, all of these are better than the ATC or a figure 8 tool which I have used. I'll call Petzl to see what the main differences are because we could end up just using one tool and get rid of the ascender.

About the hotel roof, I think one might want to consider using a second rope tied up top onto the static line or some very secure structure up top, and you would want to place a few loops of protection w/ webbing and carrabiners on some other fixed structures (such as roof top HVAC units, the base of a vent hood, etc.) as you go further perpendicular to your static line or main piece of top rope protection.
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Catsvstrained
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07/04/2009 9:34 AM

Here is probably the best information on decending devices as delivered by Ropeworks,  one of the nations leading SPRAT certifying companies: http://www.ropeworks.com/s.nl/it.I/...egory=-112

As far as ladder stabilizers, nothing in my  opinion beats the LadderMax. Over the course of a 20yr Cat Career this piece of eqpt will significantly curtail your risk and quite possibly even save your life.



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BobH
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07/04/2009 9:15 PM
Wow, great article.  Do you have an opinion on the Petzl ID vs the Petzl Gri-Gri for what we do? 
 
That article talks about "low angle slopes" and I suppose that roof climbing is not the direct vertical type descending that a rescue person (or window washer) would be doing.  With that in mind, the following comment seems to favor the Gri-Gri over the Petzl ID (Industrial Descender)
 
The most appropriate use of the Gri Gri in the industrial market is as a work positioning device and as a descender for low-angle slopes or any application where the full weight of the technician is not on the device. The I'D does not excel in this environment because the panic lock engages too easily when not fully loaded.
 
The point he makes about "full weight of the technician is not on the device" - "not fully loaded" makes total sense to me.  During a roof inspection, you aren't "falling all the time" (hopefully) so there is just a bit of weight on the descender as you play out the line.

Personally I am pretty happy with my Gri-Gri (and the Gibbs rope grab).  If someone buys, uses, and likes something else please post your findings.
 
Kevin Kramer said:
As far as ladder stabilizers, nothing in my  opinion beats the LadderMax.
 
Yeah, I really like mine.  I got it 2 years ago along with one of these "Walk-Through" things they sell at www.bigrocksupply.com (and roofing supply and larger tool stores).  You can use them together.
 
 
 
When I read a review 2 years ago on the Ladder-Max, and the guy was saying that if you used both together it was bullet-proof, I had to try it.
 
Where this guy's 2 feet are, is where the ladder-max "foot tread" connection things go.  They co-exist nicely.  It does add a bit of weight to the top of the ladder though, when you are staging it.  A lot of the time I just connect both of them to my little 16' ladder and that is no problem at all.  It is like adding 3' to any ladder, so a 24' becomes a 27'.  It is designed to provide the 3' above Eve that OSHA requires.
 
Using the ladder max is like having 4 legs for the ladder instead of 2.  It will use the roof for support and will not slide.  I still tie-off though.
 
 
 
 
Bob H
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