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Last Post 01/03/2009 10:52 PM by  iCAT
Unpleasantly Surprised
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cowboy26995
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12/25/2008 11:59 AM
    Over the course of the past two years I stayed in contact with several adjusters with interesting resumes so that in the event of a Cat striking I would have a resource pool to pick from. In 04 and 05 I had not strayed from taking on no more commercial work than myself and a couple of trustworthy associates were capable of handling. In 04 I had started a Florida based IA company and was attempting to garner a following and client base. Unfortunately 06 and 07 were quiet. In 08 with Ike I was looking to expand and an opportunity presented itself for a larger volume of work.  Those resources I had cultivated all chimed in "if you got work we'll be there" Well guess what nobody did. I guess placing trust in folks word is not a wise thing anymore. Opportunistic, unreliable,untrustwothy, seem to define our industry today. I thought if I paid 75%, photos, mileage, fuel surcharge I'd get a better quality adjusting personnel. Well surprise, surprise instead you get folks that can climb a ladder but little else. Minimal scoping skills, non extistent policy appreciation and totally incapable of a comprehensive narrative, sorry computer skills and these are folks calling themselves general adjusters. I wonder now whether I'll ever put twenty people to work again or whether I'll retreat back to providing quality adjusting a skill that is sorely lacking. Some may say that the two year hiatus took quality adjusters out of the picture. I sure hope to find a few that will keep their word for next Cat.
    Marc Dubois
    Executive General Adjuster
    M.G.D. Claim Services Inc.
    "Your Commercial Claims Solution"
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    okclarryd
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    12/25/2008 9:01 PM
    Marc,

    Sorry to hear of your entry into the IA employer world. Or, the results, that is.

    I reviewed several hundred files from three different IA vendors working Ike claims and the file quality was all over the place. Most of it seemed to be in the basement. As to the folks that decided to not work for you............I assume that you have the list of names pinned on the wall.

    Keep meeting folks, keep putting a list together, keep trying to find adjusters that are good to their word, etc, etc.

    Personal contacts and developing daily claims to keep a couple of folks working would be my suggestion, if I were to make one.

    The way things are going at present with phone adjusters and internet file handling, I'm thinkin' commercial claims are the way to go.
    Larry D Hardin
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    HuskerCat
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    12/25/2008 10:29 PM
    I'm on board with Larry, after reviewing the work turned in by the supposed "cream of the crop".  Required a crow bar to get a 1st report & photos, although so simple to do on Xact.  All we need is "here's the photos, the damage, and an approx amount of loss;  get ya the estimate shortly".  Or at least, make an entry in the activity log & upload/label pics so we can see what's happening.  Takes about 30 seconds to do, versus numerous phone calls/messages/emails for status, or worse yet pissing somebody off because I had to call the manager to get a response.
     
    Just don't understand having to play hell getting any photos til the closing report, then they aren't captioned.  Saw the adjuster's finger a lot pointing at something...is it damage? or not damaged?  And if so, why?  Never really figured it out, because the area wasn't identified so if it was in the estimate who knew?  Now there are coverage questions, so we're back to square one & I need to assign a new adjuster or an engineer.  It's 60 days post assignment, the insured is getting impatient, and now I have to tell them we're kinda starting from scratch.  Goes over really well. 
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    Tom Toll
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    12/26/2008 8:43 AM
    Marc, pride and integrity seems to have vanished with some adjusters. I was always taught that pride and integrity will be what makes the person. I am truly sorry you had those problems finding the RIGHT set of adjusters. They are out there, just getting harder to find.
    Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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    Tim Wieneke
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    12/28/2008 4:23 PM
    Marc,
    I'm new to the IA scene as an independent. I was a staff adjuster in the 06-07 years. Carriers were seriously beefing up their staff and were making generous offers for people to join on staff and stay there. When you get used to someone else providing your car, cellphone, laptop, Xactimate license, all your equipment and covering all your travel expenses.....it gets very easy for a person to get comfortable there. I was able to leave it because I have an entrepreneurial dream, but I know many excellent adjusters who will remain staff for the stability and safety...especially in the current economy.

    Tim
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    ChuckDeaton
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    12/28/2008 6:07 PM
    To quote Mr. Hardin, "Sorry to hear of your entry into the IA employer world. Or, the results, that is", but I have to wonder if this public forum is the best place to discuss failures and to point out the conduct of the "several adjusters with interesting resumes" you kept in contact with.

    With these and other thoughts in mind this is an open request that this subject be closed and taken down.
    "Prattling on and on about being an ass with experience doesn't make someone experienced. It just makes you an ass." Rod Buvens, Pilot grunt
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    HuskerCat
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    12/28/2008 6:54 PM
    What better place might there be?  No names were mentioned, whether it be carrier/vendor/or individual.  The problem exists and will continue to exist if you try to bury it.
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    okclarryd
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    12/28/2008 11:01 PM
    IMHO, I agree with Mike. I think this should be discussed here. There is no need to name the individuals that failed to honor an agreement. They know who they are and they know that Marc knows who they are.  We should probably keep in mind that we are seeing one side of the coin here.

    There is a need to discuss the fact that this is not an isolated event. The adjusters I spoke with on their Ike files were from all parts of the country, all walks of life, and all but a few gave me grief when I asked them to correct a file that should have been caught by the IA company prior to being submitted. All kinds of excuses, reasons, non-answers, grief in general.

    This is not just within the company I worked for but is everywhere. The IA company managers and owners all spoke of the lack of competent help. They all spoke of using personnel that should not have worked a single claim but there was no one else to do the job.  Some of the IA companies would not return my calls and would only respond grudgingly to multiple emails.

    Only those companies with high morals and standards will survive in the current environment; only those companies that demand well trained adjusters and will train those that are not; only those companies that are well funded and can ALWAYS pay the help on time and correctly; only those companies that are focused on the job at hand which is to indemnify the insured in an accurate and timely manner; only those companies that will set high standards and enforce them across the board.

    We will see just exactly what 2009 brings.

    And, who survives.
    Larry D Hardin
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    sbeau4014
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    12/29/2008 9:41 AM
    Larry is correct in that this is one side of the coin, but I doubt you will ever hear the other side's reasons/version of the situation.  All vendors have different ways of getting agreements with potential adjusters for their rosters.  I would venture to guess that most adjusters are on a number of different IA company rosters, and in reality the vendors that act the quickest will generally be the ones that are going to get the more experienced non dedicated adjusters in an event.  I don't know if Marc had any agreements in writing for getting people to commit to him, or if it was just something like "if you get plenty of work, I'd be more then happy to work for you".  Also if those type committments came a year or two ago, with no calls for work, a lot of adjusters would probably not pass up work from vendor A, come Ike, and wait on that call from vendor B, without knowing if vendor B will ever call.  Most adjusters that have been in the IA business long enough know that if someone has 100 names on their roster for adjusters,theywill only get a fraction of those people when a storm hits, especially a big one.
     
    Marc, I know you talked previously about forming a group of adjusters that would only be made up of heavy hitters and had a ton of experience, and I don't know if these are the type of people that you had counted on or not. Those who are the more experienced heavy hitters will generally be some of the 1st to be called and a lot have already committed before an event like Ike hits shore.  06 and 07 lack of work probably made some more inclined to take whatever work they can get vs waiting on a call from a vendor who may or may not need them.
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    Medulus
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    12/29/2008 9:58 AM
    As always I respect your opinion, Chuck, and I believe I get your point. If I understand it correctly, you are concerned that tearing down the industry on a public website is not in our best interest. If I misunderstand, please let me know.

    However, having considered your request, I believe we need to address what is a crisis in our industry. In restrospect the 4 in '04 and the three furies of 2005 were the worst thing that could have happened to our profession. The long term damage far outweighs the short term shot in the arm. In the aftermath, with carriers trying to handle more and more claims in house due to poor quality adjusters being employed on those seven storms, many of the brightest and best have left the independent side of adjusting. I have had to leave with them and go on staff. The six figure difference between my gross in 2006 and 2007 was more than I could bear. It's amazing that Marc could even find twenty people with interesting resumes by the time Ike hit. Most of my contacts are now on staff for someone or other.
    Steve Ebner CPCU AIC AMIM

    "With great power comes great responsibility." (Stanley Martin Lieber, Amazing Fantasy # 15 August 1962)
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    Tom Toll
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    12/29/2008 11:00 AM
    Folks, let us not bury this thread in some unknown graveyard. I feel we can discuss this problem without mentioning names of vendors, adjusters, etc. This vocation is in peril and in part, we are to blame for it. Vendors needed warm bodies to fulfill obligations to companies they contract with and to that degree threw out people who were getting into this business to make huge sums of money promised to them. That did not come about, as some of the companies terminated their agreements due to lack of vendors providing knowledgeable personnel. Who can blame them. The storms in 04 and 05 just emphasized the need for more knowledgeable adjusters due to a  multitude of files re-opening after these storms, inclusive of Katrina and now Ike.
     
    I have nothing against adjusters in training, referred to as newbies. Claims Mentor is doing a good job of providing some basic training in this profession, as does Vale Tech. The attitude that a three day training class an adjuster makes is just ludicrous and insane. Of course there is nothing we as a group can do to force trainees to get proper schooling, but the vendors could quit hiring those that just want to make the buck. Will that ever happen, I doubt it very much. Experienced adjuster's are becoming far and few. Many are reaching retirement age, (myself included) and will be dropping out of sight in the near future. I love this business and will stay with it as long as I can, as are a few friends of mine. But it will reach a point that we cannot work.

    Lets keep this going. Any suggestions need to be made.
    Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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    BobH
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    12/29/2008 2:48 PM
    Posted By Marc Dubois on 25 Dec 2008 11:59 AM 
    ... Those resources I had cultivated all chimed in "if you got work we'll be there" Well guess what nobody did. .
    I understand Chuck's point - this was kind of a "downer" to post on Christmas day.  And yet I understand Marc's frustration.
    For what it's worth, I wasn't one of the people lined up to work with Marc. When Marc promoted the "top tier" concept early 2008 I wrote him an Email saying it was a great idea, but I couldn't do it because I was working a steady adjusting gig in my home state.  I was making good money during the winter storm season, then my work dried up as the weather improved, to almost nothing.
     
    I was committed to no one, not even a tacit agreement.  Standby lists came and went for various small storms.  Then as Hurricane Gustav approached - everything heated up.  All the vendors mobilized, some went beyond standby to actually gather adjusters at a location in preparation for the storm even before it hit landfall.
     
    Ike turned out to be the bigger storm that hit 2 weeks later.  The timing may have been bad for Marc if that's when he needed good people - as they would be the ones getting offers to work 2 weeks earlier when Gustav approached.  
     
    I'm sure Marc has looked at this from every angle.  In a perfect world, the first storm of the season is "the big one".  Even with that scenario, you are working with the logistics of people that can break free when a storm hits.  It would be taking it a step further to expect people to sit on their hands when a moderate storm hits, so they are available when the even larger storm hits 2 weeks later.
     
    This comes down to something that has been aired out before. What do you do to pay the bills between Cat events?  Some have joined the staff of a carrier, and with the security of a salary stayed there (or worked as staff for that storm event).  If experienced people aren't available in large quantity, you get the alternative.
    Bob H
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    RandyC
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    12/29/2008 7:08 PM
    With the paid and unpaid standby system that serves the independent adjuster system, both vendor and adjuster will continue to be burned. On the one hand, Marc had his problems. Another thread concerns an adjuster that stayed loyal on standby through all those storms...yet never was deployed.

    In the electricial construction industry, we use a multiple book system. First everyone qualifies with license exam that means something, and 5 years of monitered work experience which includes one day or two nights of school per week for the duration as apprenticeship. Many are washed out during that time. After qualification, then the "journeyman" is allowed to sign an out of work list. There is book one for qualified tradesmen local, book two for out of town "travelers". Anyone on either of those books are capable of doing the work. Then there are book three and book four. Book three would be people with some related experience, but not full qualification. Book four would be warm bodies.

    Rules of the book: Once hired an employer can keep an employee as long as it serves the both of them, but once released (furloughs are acceptable if agreeable to both) to sign the book he must be hired from the book, signing at the back of the list and working his way to the front as employers call from the front only. Unemployed trademan can sign as many books (out of work list) as he wants. He can turn down a call, but gets a hickey. Three hickeys without accepting a call and he hickeys off the book and has to resign at the back. Once employed, he is expected to take himself off all the other books he was on before he took a position.

    It works pretty well, but is not perfect. When there is a huge demand...jobs go unfilled. When demand is low, those most loyal to companies and those most capable work while others wait on the list.

    If you haven't guessed by now, this method of employment is a union method. Some non-union shops signatory to certain trade associations have a similiar system though on a less grand scale. Efficient as the apprentice programs are and the qualified book systems...unions are in disfavor and lose ground year after year.

    Obviously, the IA industry is far too disorganized to adopt a system like this. For starters, there is no adequate license system or apprenticeship. NACA has a new apprenticeship program, but it will take time to develop. Claimsmentor (who works with NACA) is getting better and better every day, but mentors willing to give on the job training are scarce. That is just asking a lot from an adjuster to do that without some sort of compensation.

    Of course, there is the roster. The IA vendor has his favored top tier adjusters, his middle tier, and finally those on the bottom. An adjuster (other than first tier) does not know how he stands and can rot on that roster...and even standby forever without getting a call. For that reason, the roster or the standby list doesn't mean much. Adjusters know that they may have been on that roster for a year, but some adjuster a week off last deployment will be chosen over them in a moment. Why should he be loyal to a list like that. An IA can tell those on his roster, they are first call, but the adjuster never knows his standing until the call comes. New IA firms are at a great disadvantage here to established firms with large bank accounts and development programs for new adjusters. They can invest heavily in development only to have their new adjusters work one storm and jump ship for a higher fee.

    Rosters right here on Cado and Claimsmentor are used sometimes like the Unions out of work list...but due to a lack of formal qualifications the vendor never knows what he is getting until the overwhelmed adjuster returns his claims in frustration in a pile or worse dumps them in a dumpster and leaves without saying.

    In times of high demand, the construction industry mixes the qualified with the warm bodies to produce product. I watched convoys of line crews working 16 hours a day restoring power in Houston and Galveston. They use fully qualified local, out of state, somewhat qualified, and pure warm bodies to get the job done.

    The insurance industry can do the same thing. It actually is already doing it. Afterwards, we look back at the parts that were ugly and didn't work as well as we like. Next time we will all do better.

    Randy Cox

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    Tim_Johnson
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    12/29/2008 7:56 PM
    Larry H... A question, Do you guys keep one of these said books down at the parlour??
    Tim Johnson
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    RandyC
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    12/29/2008 8:32 PM

     Afterwards, we look back at the parts that were ugly and didn't work as well as we like. Next time we will all do better.

    Randy Cox


    Tim, if they do keep one of these books down at the parlor....



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    HuskerCat
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    12/29/2008 10:39 PM
    That's a very interesting  & well told story, Randy...but pretty much irrelevant when it comes to Cat adjusting.  Why? Because those same qualifications and educational background that you are talking about don't exist with 99.5% of the applicants for Cat work.  The people you are talking about are embedded (well, maybe or maybe not lately) in very well paying round-the-year jobs.  They aren't the homeless-gypsy that typifies the job that we do.  Thus, the disorganization and high turnover. And you also would like to hope they know the difference between there & their,  weather & whether, or college & collage.  
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    dcmarlin
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    12/30/2008 1:07 AM
    Mike,

    You forgot advise and advice!  
    Gimme a bottle of anything and a glazed donut ... to go! (DLR)
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    john jarrett
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    12/30/2008 2:13 PM
    New to this discussion group.  A little history.  Been a home improvement contractor, roofing contractor, water damage cleanup contractor for maaaaaannny years.  Finally got tired of educating adjusters and thought I would get my license.  Also got tired of dealing with laborers not showing up, getting drunk, stealing and all the other problems of having employees.  Is there any way to get on someones list that will look at experience in the industry, but not as a claims adjuster?  Xactimate not a problem.
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    okclarryd
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    12/30/2008 7:01 PM
    You know,...........we really don't keep many records or name lists at the parlour.
    Larry D Hardin
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    cowboy26995
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    12/30/2008 10:47 PM
    The only point I was really trying to make is that integrity, committment and honesty seem to be in short supply. I fully understand the need to look after oneself in the world of Cat adjusting however when I tell someone something I feel the need to honor my word. After all what are we selling but ourselves. If we cant be good to our word then the rest does not bode well. I hope to build a roster of honest, hardworking, professionals for next storm season. If you're looking for above average earnings, timely pay and you can commit to providing top notch service I want to work with you.
    Marc Dubois
    Executive General Adjuster
    M.G.D. Claim Services Inc.
    "Your Commercial Claims Solution"
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