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Last Post 03/02/2007 5:32 PM by  BillyDell
Ice on sidewalk and driveway.
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BillyDell
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02/27/2007 4:26 PM

    Homeowner has a basic ho policy written by Colorado SF. Ice acculumlated in front of residence full length. Aprroximately 2-3inches thick. City unable to clear. Houses on either side the ice melted due to direct rays of sun. Insured unable to break up ice with pick and shuffle. Poured ice melting chemicals across the side walk to insure  safer passage of school students in neighborhood. Chemicals damaged side walk and driveway causing a crazing and loosning of concreate surfaces to entire area side walk and driveway.

    Is there coverage? Where?

    sbeau4014
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    02/27/2007 6:52 PM
    What kind of ice melting chemical would cause these damages? Generally that type of damage to concrete is due to moisture getting into the concrete itself, refreezing and cracking/crazing the concrete. Without the benefit of any coverage forms here I'd say no coverage due to changes and extremes in temperature, freezing/thawing....of pavements etc, shrinking/bulging expansion of pavements and common exclusions in property policies and I would guess that you will find the above cause of loss to be the primary cause. I lived north of the Mason Dixon line for 26 years or so and knew of no ice melting product that would do any damage to concrete except leave a salt mark that washes off with water.
    HuskerCat
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    02/27/2007 7:16 PM

    Hi Billy, how you doing?

    I agree with Steve.  Depending on coverage form, insured is probably SOL.  Can they blame it on a large vehicle (specified peril) driving over the paved area?  Your inside person at the carrier should advise you if they want further investigation by an expert.  Photo & document the neighboring sidewalks & driveways.  Often times there is undermining by water drainage if the area is hilly, it will create voids beneath the concrete and cracks/tilted pads will be apparent everywhere. 

    dcmarlin
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    02/27/2007 9:18 PM
    I have the same problems with my driveway. Due to having a north facing driveway and driving over the snow, I had several inches of ice in my driveway for over two months and almost a foot of ice in the street in front of my house. I did not use any ice melt except for what may have been on the vehicle tires. Now that the ice is melting, I have discovered additional areas of deterioration. It is most probably due to freeze/thaw, expansion/contraction, etc. I would bet that most of the areas that are "crazing" or "spalling" were pre-existing and now the insured has "heightened awareness."

    I should add, to the best of my knowledge, depending upon age and quality of the concrete, certain salt type chemicals can have an adverse effect to concrete.  But it is doubtful that a few applications of the product could damage a driveway or sidewalk that wasn't already crazing and spalling prior to this event.  As Mike said above, you may want to do some research or contact an expert to determine how the chemical the insured claims he used will effect concrete.

    As Steve points out, it appears that this is probably not covered for reasons explained above. It is also probably not a sudden and accidental occurrence.

    http://www.madsci.org/posts/archive....Ch.r.html
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    Ray Hall
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    02/27/2007 9:46 PM

    Very hard to believe this story, its not a new story, but i am not from snow country, but the Farm has has this come up thousands of time. Ask them.

    Catmannn
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    02/28/2007 7:29 AM
    Do the right thing.

    Have State Farm send out a couple of their cracker jack engineers. Sooner or later they will send one out that will say salt did damage the concrete.
    Invoice the file.


    HOutz
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    02/28/2007 9:45 AM
    Way back when I worked on a concrete crew (with a hydraulic curb-and-gutter machine set to stringline), so I'll offer my two cents.

    In cases of slabwork, after the "mud" is poured it gets screeded (levelled to grade) and then bullfloated. At this point, the slab surface is generally pretty wet, and this moisture needs to evaporate before final finishing. The finish floating action will draw up more water and produce a slurry of fines (we called it grout) that fills voids, but
    over-floating or too much water produces a weak, chalky top layer that easily flakes off from powerwashing, wear-and-tear, or freeze/ thaw cycles. I've seen this goop being slopped back and forth on top of a slab and just have to shudder.

    Brooming creates a non-slip finish but is often done really badly
    or performed too early. I hate seeing big streaks in a nice slab because the hair-man was too lazy to keep the dried cement dingleberries off his broom bristles .

    For interior slabs, the finish is put on by a rotary steel trowelling machine. The mud must be fairly "dry"; this method produces a very smooth and hard surface (I've also heard it called burnishing).
    Lee Norwood, aka "CATdawg"
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    BillyDell
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    03/02/2007 5:32 PM
    Thanks to all. Insured withdrew claim.
    BillyD
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