Is it the position of ARISE that

all adjusters should be required

by OSHA to be roped up whenever

they are on any roof?

And if not please be specific  about

what regulations you would like

to see OSHA implement. We have

plenty of space here and many of

us like to read.

Thank you.

Guy Snappy

I think roof safety is the soft underbelly of the adjusting industry.

And it all seems to hinge on OSHA's:

"Fall Protection" Regulations, as subpart M 1926.500 (a) (1).

If the exemption were eliminated or severely modified

what would happen?

Would all roof inspectors have to  safety-up  like roofers?

And if there was regulation where would the liability fall:

adjuster, IA firm, or carrier? Some combination?

What effect on the industry?

Policy premiums would have to be much higher if

cat claims had to be handled at the same speed

yet adjusters roped-up so as to not possibly fall more

than 6 feet.

What a mare's nest.

I'm not supporting ARISE

or get together's with OSHA

or additional regulations.

Just wondering out loud.

Walking my brain.

Snappy

Drink up Shriners.

Posted By Snappy on 22 Jun 2009 03:22 PM

 

Would all roof inspectors have to  safety-up  like roofers?

 

BobH --

Good pictures.

Was that a 1 or 2 man operation?

One rope or two?

If 1 man what did you anchor to?

And anchored both ends or not?

Any damage to roof ridge area by rope?

Thanks.

Snappy

Drink up Shriners.

Was that a 1 or 2 man operation?

 

One rope or two?

If 1 man what did you anchor to?

Even with 2 people we preferred to anchor to fixed objects (no shortage of trees in Georgia).



This is what the "other side of the rope" was tied to in the last photo of the previous page.

You will notice in the first photo there was a brick pillar near the street, and the other end of the rope was tied to that:



Necessity is the mother of invention, and most of the time you will spot a 4x4 deck post, a porch with various anchor possibilities, or a very substantial hedge-bush that you can wrap your webbing around the base a few times then tie the rope off to that.

 

If you are on a really cut-up roof with faces going off in all directions that is where the ground person comes in very handy, moving as needed. 

 

And anchored both ends or not?

Any damage to roof ridge area by rope?

Posted By Ray Hall on 25 Jun 2009 01:14 PM
...and a two story ladder.

BobH --

Thanks for the details on your pictures.

What would you think of the following system:

1 man

1 rope

secured at both ends

anchored  to:   3 or 4  55# dumb bells  (each side)

Alpine butterfly loops tied  every 3 feet

(The butterfly loop can take a load in either

  direction and from the loop itself.)

1 harness

2  lanyards

(both lanyards clipped into the harness)

At least one lanyard would always be clipped into

one of the butterfly loops.

Roped in:

up the ladder

on both sides

down the ladder.

You could leave slack for lateral movement

and take up slack with a carabiner

between adjacent or non adjacent loops.

Since you would never fall or slide more than

four or five feet before "being arrested"  the

anchorage would not need to be more than the

weight of the climber. Rope friction would in

effect add "weight" to the anchorage.

Hooking in to butterfly loops

eliminates the possibility of

rope grips, ascenders, or whatever mechanical device

not holding (failing)  if turned upside down.

From what I understand only the

prussic knot always works bi-directionally.

The Alpine butterfly loops would hold if you

were standing on the ridge and fell to either

side -- even better than a prussic knot.

Snappy

Drink up Shriners, always.

1 rope secured at both ends anchored  to:   3 or 4  55# dumb bells  (each side)

Alpine butterfly loops tied  every 3 feet (The butterfly loop can take a load in either  direction and from the loop itself.)  ...2  lanyards ...(both lanyards clipped into the harness).  ...At least one lanyard would always be clipped into one of the butterfly loops.

Thanks Bob for the kind words, looks like you are putting your R&H training to good use. GREAT Pics!

Posted By Catsvstrained on 28 Jun 2009 06:19 AM
This is a LL II Line Launcher that can place "Slick Line" over a four story Bld. Very effective, extremely accurate with padded projectile.

Keven -- Nobody's trying to get any of your  information for free.

I asked BobH some questions about the pictures he posted. He

answered them.

But  I will ask you this, is there a good 1 man, 1 rope, portable anchor,

roping-up system, in your opinion? Or must it be a 2 man team effort

to be safe.

Snappy

Drink up Shriners.

Posted By Snappy on 29 Jun 2009 12:41 AM

...But  I will ask you this, is there a good 1 man, 1 rope, portable anchor,

roping-up system, in your opinion? Or must it be a 2 man team effort

to be safe.

Posted By Kevin

Slick line is an arborist line that is tangle free if you handle it appropriately. Its exterior is kind of waxy (1.8mm) and I store it simply laid on top of itself in a milk crate

Posted By Kevin
...an outstanding one man "roping-up" system which is called a "Static" belay system that most people who I train prefer greatly over a "Two Person" belay team. Static belays are normally set up using one rope anchored on both sides of bld and  incorporate portable anchors on homes w/ no natural anchors.

Posted By RJortberg on 30 Jun 2009 03:41 PM
A few questions-

1) Are people using a vehicle bumper as one static anchor? Strengths / weaknesses?

2) As opposed to the GriGri, do people use a rappel device like Black Diamond's ATC instead? 

 

 

 
3) Bob- did you give up on the slingshot instead of the reel?

I still have and sometimes use the slingshot.  I can "aim" better with it than the reel, but the loose line is a chore for me.  One of the guys on our team had a ladder fall on his rod & reel, he had no other solution.  I tend to hold on to tools, often find a use for them.

4) Are people using the Zorber to absorb the shock of a fall? Is that what Tony has attached between the harness and the ascender?  

5) How are you stabilizing the ladder at the top? A bungie cord?

 

 

6) Do people use ladder leveling devices (like pivit - http://www.provisiontools.com/) for the base?

 

 

7) How about shoes? I use shoes like Tony's but I've thought about Tiger Paws. Not sure what works best in the rain.
 

 

8) Though I use a bowlen and an overhand knot for almost anything, are there a few other knots which are "must knows" to make life easier?

Ascending the rope is possible without changing the position of the STOP by adding a footloop and a handled rope clamp / grab.

Posted By rickhans on 30 Jun 2009 10:49 PM

This is a very informative topic. I have a few questions to add.  These days most of the roofs I inspect are commercial, but after being on a tall 2 story hotel in Houston, I am ready to learn about ropes. 

 

1.How do you handle a hotel roof since your rope goes up and over.  With a ridge of a few hundred feet, that would require getting off the roof and re-anchoring your line many times.  Is there a way to parallel the ridge with ropes then  tie off to it?

 

 

 

 

2.If so, it looks like it would only be for fall arrest and would deflect too much to use for climbing the roof.  True?

 

 

3.If I only do a few roofs during the year where I would need rope and harness, is it cost effective compared to renting a lift, or owning a lift as I did in the past.  hwen I would use a lift, I use a harness with lanyard attached the ring on my back but gives me enough room to walk a ways out on the roof, depending on where I could set the bucket.

 

 

 

4.What is the cost to take a R&H course and become proficient in its use? What is the cost of the ropes and harness? 

 

 

Here is probably the best information on decending devices as delivered by Ropeworks,  one of the nations leading SPRAT certifying companies: http://www.ropeworks.com/s.nl/it.I/...egory=-112

As far as ladder stabilizers, nothing in my  opinion beats the LadderMax. Over the course of a 20yr Cat Career this piece of eqpt will significantly curtail your risk and quite possibly even save your life.

The most appropriate use of the Gri Gri in the industrial market is as a work positioning device and as a descender for low-angle slopes or any application where the full weight of the technician is not on the device. The I'D does not excel in this environment because the panic lock engages too easily when not fully loaded.

Kevin Kramer said:
As far as ladder stabilizers, nothing in my  opinion beats the LadderMax.

 

Posted By Tom Toll on 05 Jul 2009 12:16 PM
Too bad there is not a walk through extension for the Little Giant of knock off. 

If you can cut a wood spacer, the "Walk-through" will fit on a little giant.  You have to remove one of the sliding extensions, and replace it with the Walk-through.  For my 17' Little Giant it works out to about the same length, because the Walk-through adds 3' to the top ladder rung. 

Here's the deal, the "Walk-through" has an opening made to accommodate a fiberglass ladder. It fits very snug to a fiberglass ladder, tighten the screw and it is rock-solid.

That opening is rather loose depending on what size aluminum ladder you use.  For most 2 story aluminum ladders it fits OK when you tighten down the screws, but for my 16' ladder I like to put a piece of a ruler (1' cut off a yardstick, or piece of lath) between the ladder and the "Walk-through", then crank down the tightening screw.

For a little giant you have to put in a few pieces of lath, or a 1x2 to fill the void before tightening the screw.

I used my table saw to rip a strip of wood the exact size needed to fill the void to my little giant rails, and when I tighten the screws it is pretty darn solid.

The relationship of the "ladder to drip edge" remains as it has always been.  We are talking about something extending up above the drip edge, and it is strong and stable enough for me not to worry at all about it.

Certainly beats stepping around the outer perimeter of the ladder as you place your body out-of-balance to get on an inclined surface...

Visualize carrying a bundle of shingles and swinging around the side of the ladder.  You would prefer the "Walk-through" even if the extended arms could be pushed & moved slightly.  They aren't going anywhere, they are anchored to the rung of the ladder and cannot fall off or anything.  They will stabilize you getting on-off the roof, and that is their purpose.  They do not support the weight of your body, you don't "step" on them, the stability of the ladder remains unchanged if they are present or not in terms of placement on ground up the roof eve.

-----------------------------------------------
I have seen the I "Walk-Through" at 2 different large tool outlet supplies recently (though you won't find it at Lowe's or Home Depot).  If you call some roofing supply and specialty tool outlets I bet you can find a place locally that has them in stock.  So you can see for yourself how it can fit on whatever ladder you have before you make a commitment to buy it.
 

Test

Chuck, that is quite the "Super Slide". 

OK, this is an example of a cut-up roof, and sometimes you can't place the rope exactly where you want it.  See the circle up to my right?  when I drew that chalk circle I had the rope almost sideways, but even if I slipped I wouldn't have gone down to the ground.

5,000 Sf Mansion

Right hip of same 2 story house.  Thank goodness for the chimney, to keep the rope from sliding down below that point.

I am using the same Gri-Gri for all of this, and with a cut-up roof it does take some time to work up & down the various faces & get in position.

I don't have any right now...  gimmie some time because I am 7 days into a new deployment working very long hours. 

I'm not currently on a 2-story-steep team, but did rope off today on a 10/12. 

Once you get very familiar with the knots, tools, and process it doesn't take that much longer - and makes you feel in control rather that "what if".

In my younger days, this roof would not have been intimidating...other than finding a way to get there and then get off.   Once on, it's a go.   Might have a little to do with growing up on a farm and riding a little wagon out of the hay loft cupalo down off the roof  of a cow barn onto a hay stack, then climbing back up and doing it over again and again.  But now after age has set in, those ropes don't look like a bad idea if I can find someone to go up first and put them in place.     

On that roof above, 15 years of HOT Atlanta sun fried it.  The granules were showering off like BB's. Cougar-Paws helped immensely, but my feet were still slipping out from under me at times, forcing me to lean back on the rope to get more perpendicular to the 45 degree angle roof. I personally would have fallen if I was not roped off on that roof. I would not have climbed it without a rope.

In terms of safety, I don't think it's the good condition roofs that cause trouble. It's the ones with issues. Like the guy at the last site I was at, who had a shingle pull out from under him.  Broke his leg.  That should never happen, but how the hell would you know. Likely 2 layers, or stapled, or didn't see a fold-back-crease line that weakened the tab. 

I don,t think you should not charge for steep if you paid your due. But if you own a rope rigging and do it alone, they charge $150.00 in New England. You and your ability is worth the same.  You have kinda painted yourself into a corner Bob, you will be the first witness the plaintiffs widow will call on the poor sole who tried to walk a roof  without a rope. These insurance companies have to pay for special tools and hazards. Just ask the carrier/vendor if they write Homeowners in New England and you are doing the same for $40.00, because the VENDOR will not stand up for their SERVANT.

Personally I did not seek out Rope & Harness training to make additional money.
I knew for a fact that I had been on spooky widow-maker roofs that I had no business being on, and lucky to get down without sliding off.

This is the one I mentioned a few pages ago, where I went out to a store in 2005 to buy a rope and could not get it over the ridge because the roof went from 1 story up to 3 and was HUGE.  Their 2-story garage apartment behind looks small.  Today I know I could get my rope over it with proper messenger line* & pull the full size rope back over. 

As a 9/12 it was borderline, but the condition made it spooky - stuff pulling out from your feet all the time. 

All I ever wanted was to learn how to be safe on a roof, and didn't particularly feel like asking for more than was being offered (the schedule wouldn't change anyway).

As independent professionals, we are expected to know our trade. Either decline the file with the widow-maker roof, or accept it and do it safely. I harbor no ill-will toward any Carrier, or Vendor, and consider that I am responsible for my actions and my own safety.
------------------
* Lately I am having the best results by casting a monofilament line over the roof with a fishing rod, and use that to pull back a cord that is about 80 feet long that is tied to the actual climbing rope.  20 lb monofilament will not pull a heavy climbing rope, but it will pull back something about 2mm thick (like parachute cord or the "slick line" that kevin uses).

Bob- I am very interested in learning how to utilize R&H and have been for some time, but just have not had time to check it out more. I am located about 1.5 hours from where you are working now, if you wanted a hand roping any claims down there i would be more than willing to assist, just so i can get a better idea or how to go about it.

Posted By RandyC on 09 Jul 2009 12:55 AM
.... I did a 12/12 pitch yesterday in Denver  ...I work by myself, so I got only the $40 you mentioned and fee, but I closed a file. 

I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is working for the same carrier I am, but in a different state (Oklahoma) and they have had him doing 2-story steep by himself with no assistant and allow the full $150 charge...   I have heard it go both ways - seems to depend on the local management interpretation it seems.

Posted By Amart on 09 Jul 2009 08:55 AM

I am located about 1.5 hours from where you are working now, if you wanted a hand roping any claims down there i would be more than willing to assist, just so i can get a better idea or how to go about it.

Cool, I will E-mail you if something comes up that I can predict. 
So far, this area doesn't have a lot of steep roofs (I have roped up once in 10 days). 

I do not consider myself an expert at this - if you want really good training I just have to say that the class I took with Kevin was excellent (the guy who started this thread).  He was State Farm staff for years, R&H trainer, now he's been an independent for years. 

Anyone who is serious about learning this stuff should start out by practicing 2 knots that you will use constantly:
-Bowline on a Bight for the climbing rope
-Water knot for the webbing.

Just do them while you are stuck in front of the TV or whatever, until you trust your knots with no hesitation.

Kevin has an E-book that displays the knots and how they are used, I think the E-book is something like $30 and goes toward purchase of class if you do it.  I have done a lot of commercial general liability work over the years, and believe that anyone who sticks their neck out to teach others how to climb steep roof has balls the size of coconuts.  Gotta be motivated to spread the word for safety, and after meeting Kevin personally I believe that is his intent.

Y'know the expression "Going out on a tight-rope without a Net"?

I have been on spooky roofs with a rope, and without a rope.

One has to be a lot more brave (courageous, stupid, whatever) to get on a widow-maker roof without a rope. It doesn't take a lot of bravery to rope-off, it's just a method to get where you need to be in a fairly controlled manner.

It does take longer, but then again, you don't have to wait for bones to heal.

Forgot to add this- a rock climbing friend and I were discussing this topic- he commented that we should tie a knot in the rope at about the gutter line on each side of the house. He also recommended tying a quick knot when we are in a given spot for a while... a few secs to tie and untie if we know we will be in a place for a bit. Always have double anchor points for the static belay also.

Posted By RJortberg on 21 Jul 2009 02:49 PM
I also have been using a Petzl ascender as an alternate attachment device. ... but it is more on-off when descending. I think descending with the ascender is fine on a medium steep roof, but for a really steep roof or for controlled rappels (let's say if your ladder is not tied off and falls) the grigri would be a much better device since it is more gradual in terms of stopping. So, I think the grigri is probably more versatile of the two devices.

Gotcha - good on your feedback.  Similar to your experience, I like the Petzl ascender for going up because it attaches so quickly to the rope.  It can be removed very quickly, which is a plus.  You get up, and switch over to a Gri-Gri or whatever.

If you try to DESCEND using the Petzl ascender, it is possible for the rope to "pop out" of the device if you get carried away releasing tension on the device (that would never happen with a rope-grab).  That actually happened to me once when I tried descending with the Petzl ascender, so I put a carabiner through the holes located at the front of the ascender, to make sure I don't get separated from the rope.

You may want to look into the Petzl Rescuescender (which is very similar to the Gibbs Rope Grab) if you want something to give you some security going up the roof, and it "can" be used for a controlled descent by easing the tension on the cam that presses against the rope.  The big difference is that it has a ribbed cam, but no spikes that would snag on the line during a descent.

he commented that we should tie a knot in the rope at about the gutter line on each side of the house.

May sound good in theory...  but I don't think anyone who does this very often would do that.  None of the group of 12 Two-Story-Steep teams (24 people) I was working with recently did that.  I suppose the words "impractical"  "overkill" come to mind.  You get to trust your equipment, know the boundary of the roof, and just get it done.  

Usually I have each end of the rope tied to something like a tree, or pole.  If there is a "loose end" of the rope (such as when you have a ground person on the other end) it is absolutely a good idea to tie a knot at the end of the rope.

You can use 2 ascenders if it is a really steep roof.

Wow.  I only use one, and connect it to the harness with a foot or 2 of webbing (or a "Zorber" like the photo I took of Tony on earlier page, with Petzl Ascender).  One hand is on the Ascender, the other is HOLDING the rope so that the ascender can be PUSHED forward.  You make your way up the rope a step at a time, pulling yourself, then grabbing another length of rope.