Posted By Steve Ebner on 12 Mar 2009 01:03 PM

Chris,

Time to get a new boss. Yes, I know it's a tough economy but your safety is more important than climbing just one more roof.

Back in 1999 I was in Fairfax, VA, when I got a call from Jim Flynt. He told me that an adjuster had fallen off a roof and was in a hospital in Fairfax. He asked me to go and visit. So, I dropped everything and headed for the hospital. When I got there, the nurse informed me he had just died. The total distance he had fallen was 22 feet.

In 2006 I was in Indianapolis and met one of the GAB staff adjusters named Steve. A week later I was informed he had fallen off a roof. For months we weren't sure if he would live or die. The last I knew he was in a wheel chair for the rest of his life.

Anecdotal evidence? You betcha! Enough for me to sit up and take notice? Absolutely! Personal experience? There's nothing worse than that feeling in the pit of your stomach when you start sliding down a steep pitch roof heading toward the ground knowing that the odds are less than 50/50 that you will be able to stop before the roof runs out. I have climbed roofs I should not have. I've somehow lived long enough to become wise enough to avoid doing it again.

Take a photo of the roofs your boss wants you to climb. Mount them on a sheet of paper. Ask him to sign a statement that he is ordering you to climb this roof. If he is willing to sign the order, you will consider climbing the roof. Then make sure the signed orders are safely in the possession of your future widow or next of kin so they can bring the lawsuit after you die. Turn a second copy over to OSHA, explaining that your boss is asking you to do this without providing you with the proper equipment to safely perform the task. Be prepared to look for another job. There are other jobs, though. You only have one life.

 

(I considered using some profanity for emphasis -- something about what your boss could do with a rolling donut -- but my better instincts kicked in and I deleted that part of the post.)

 

Steve is absolutely correct. Better to live than to die falling from a roof. I have lost three friends in the last 10 years due to falling from unsafe roofs (too steep).

Chris,

Regarding roof safety, there are OSHA guidelines that I believe state that any roof of a 7/12 pitch or greater requires the use of a harness system. This does not have anything to do with the roof height it is the pitch only.  In many areas throughout the northeast and midwest there are many roofs that are of a 7/12 pitch or greater. 

If you are the employee of an insurance company or adjusting company, non compliance with OSHA regulations may make the company ilabile to heavy fines from the federal government.  If you are an independent contractor/adjuster YOU may be risking heavy fines from the federal government..

Make sure your company or you are aware of the current OSHA regulations for not only roofing but all situations which you may be exposed to head protection, eye protection, use of a respirator mask in possible chemical, bio hazzard (sewage backups), biologicals (mold inspections)???

This is your first post, welcome to the forum.
You come across with stern warnings via OSHA.
Are you absolutely 100% certain that OSHA regs apply to those inspecting roofs for insurance purposes?

I don't think so.

Do they apply to the guy installing the roof, most definitely. And boy are they ignored by by most of the workers I see (not that it makes it OK to ignore them). Personally I apply safety protocols more than just about anyone I know - so I am not trying to downplay the importance.

We should take precautions because we want to, not out of fear of retribution from an outside agency policing us.
------------------------------
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owa...p_id=10756

Scope and application.

<!-- 1926.500(a)(1) -->1926.500(a)(1)

This subpart sets forth requirements and criteria for fall protection in construction workplaces covered under 29 CFR part 1926. Exception: The provisions of this subpart do not apply when employees are making an inspection, investigation, or assessment of workplace conditions prior to the actual start of construction work or after all construction work has been completed.

Good work finding that reference Bob. Plus, as it says, this is for "employees". Many, if not most, IAs are independent contractors and not employees. I personally have wondered if OSHA polices or actually has control over independent contractors. In any case, the reason to be safe is for yourself and your family, not for big brother.

Since I've only been licensed for 3 yrs., my only storm experience was Ike.  And I must say that I thouroughly enjoyed every minute of it.  I worked 100 claims, had to re-inspect 1 and handle a supplement on 1 more.  Not bad for a first storm.  The best part of the whole experience was the fact that the Adjuster Co. that I worked for told us point blank..."Don't get on ANY high or steep roofs".  That was music to my ears!  I know that's not the norm, but anytime we had a high/steep situation, we just got with the roofing company and worked it out with them with ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS.  The Adj. Co said they didn't want the liability of any of us falling off a roof.

I'm wondering if this wouldn't be a smarter move by other companies.  We may be IA's, but if they are telling us to get on the roofs, they should, in some part, be liable for injuries.

BTW,  A BIG Thank-You to BobH.  He helped me out a tremendous amount with Xm8 questions during that storm!    THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

No worries, glad to help.
I have been very fortunate to be working this year, and I believe that when you help others - good things happen.
------------------

...I'm wondering if this wouldn't be a smarter move by other companies. We may be IA's, but if they are telling us to get on the roofs, they should, in some part, be liable for injuries.

I'm glad they had that system for you. I have never personally experienced a work environment like that.
If an adjuster doesn't want to get on a high-steep roof and cannot otherwise document the damages & scope the damages then typically the file gets transferred. And that's fine if that is a Win-Win situation.

Visualize hiring a chimney sweep, and you have this bad-assed widow-maker roof they have to scale to get to the chimney. You kind of expect the guy that arrives to be able to do the job, it sort of comes with the territory. Now and then, maybe 10% maybe 20%, maybe more of the roofs that this chimney guy drives up to are going to be a challenge.

The guy is not running a carpet cleaning business, he is putting himself out there as someone who will get up to the top of chimneys so he can clean them.

If you do "daily claims" 90% of the damages will have nothing to do with roofs. It will be failed plumbing, other damage to property.

If you do wind & hail (CAT work) it is the opposite, most of your work will be inspecting & estimating direct physical damage to roofs. Some of them are going to be bad-assed and those adjusters that aren't set up for that will typically have to pass the file on to a whack-o like me...

Lots of good advise on here and I have nothing to add other than this..... For anyone still not convinced let me just say that falling hurts. It's not always about dying. I fell 23 feet  (I measured it after I recovered), on to my back but was fortunate to land on soft rain saturated ground. Compression fracture at T-10 and broken wrist . ( Somehow my brain thought my left hand could lessen my impact ). I have been on literally thousands of roofs but this fall came from a tree, duh.. I have only  had what I call a very serious fall  once on a roof where I was actually sliding down a long slope but I was fortunate enough to have a plumbing jack in my path. It was a 9/12 two story  that I was a little to comfortable on. An estimate is not worth dying for and a little fear and preparation is a healthy thing.

Posted By m.enloe on 13 Oct 2009 10:51 AM

I have been on literally thousands of roofs but this fall came from a tree, duh.

Glad you survived the fall.  I think that arborists who go up in trees to do pruning & maintenance have a very dangerous job, and their rope work is more "vertical" than what I do on a roof.

Bob,

You may want to check again as the rules have changed, the regs are now for everyone.

Why don't you post what you found, or link to the data.

This link to OSHA has not been revised that I can see

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owa...p_id=10756

Exception: The provisions of this subpart do not apply when employees are making an inspection, investigation, or assessment of workplace conditions prior to the actual start of construction work

Bob, I cannot find the photos.  Carol

Hi Carol, there are photos on this other thread http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/t...fault.aspx
As well as this one http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/tabid/60/aff/28/aft/10829/afv/topic/Default.aspx 

There is also another exception that probably exempts the adjuster from OSHA compliance. I dealt with this issue on site with an OSHA inspector then looked it up, but don't have a link to it right now.  A self employed "contractor" can not be required to be in OSHA compliance, but if he has employees, he can be held responsible for his employee's safety, but not his own. I was project manager on a remodel job for a homeowner who pulled the permits and paid the subs but the sub was using my lift. His employees were inside the house and not affected. He stepped out on a steep 2nd story 21' high roof to work on a dormer and did not attach a tether to the bucket.  The OSHA inspector saw him do it and told him she was going to fine him until he argued that he is the sub, not an employee. She then told me that she could not fine him because he is only responsible for his employees, but not his own safety.

Since an independent is not supervised nor told how to do the job, I doubt that OSHA could make an IA firm responsible for OSHA compliance, but I have not read the rules for about year.

I have never fallen off a roof nor have I ever been injured on a roof.  The reasons?

1. Very lucky twice.  While I was on the ladder at the eave circling hail hits I said I need just 1 more hit.  So I climbed on the roof.  Then I said I need just 1,2,3 more hits, etc.  So now I am up on this very steep 11/12 roof only about 10 damn scary feet away from my ladder.  So I try to hold onto the roof but I am still scared to death.  I just stand there staring at my ladder trying to decide if I should call the homeowner to ask them to come out and hold my ladder or not?  That is when a lady across the street volunteers to help me by holding my ladder.  Well that was the first time I got lucky.   I cursed myself for doing that but still did not quite learn my lesson.

2. The second time I was wearing cougar paws but the granules were so slick even with cougar paws you still slid down this roof.   I was very lucky I did not get hurt here.  Though this is when I mage the decision to buy myself a rope gun.  I now own a gun that uses a .22 caliber blank to propel a rope as far as 5 stories high.  I own a rope and harness too.  I do not give a damn what anybody thinks about me.  I will always use my harness and rope when I am scared to go up on a big and steep roof.   Furthermore a Mexican roofer taught me a trick that is better than cougar paws and less expensive!  You can buy cushions similar to those that fit inside a sofa for $35 at ABC Roofing Supply.  They are incredibly good.  Better than cougar paws!  I was on a steep roof measuring with this Mexican roofer and I decided to use his extra cushion and bounce on the roof just like him.  It was great!  Even though I had the cushion I still used cougar paws and a rope.  But the cushion is phenomenol.  If you are ever in a tough spot you might get away without using a rope.  But I still use the rope anyway cause it is the best thing there is.  You will NOT fall off the roof if you have a rope and harness.  You can still get hurt but chances of falling are very slim.

Bob H is not a wacko.  He is smart.  Bob has a lot of excellent roof training and equipment.  That is why he is working, making money and NOT dead.  Be Smart Like Bob!

Posted By insprojohn on 24 Dec 2009 10:36 PM

...I just stand there staring at my ladder trying to decide if I should call the homeowner to ask them to come out and hold my ladder or not?  That is when a lady across the street volunteers to help me by holding my ladder.  

Thanks for the kind words John. 

For what it's worth, I get a lot of peace of mind by tying-off my ladder as firmly as I can to the roof.  In 20 years I have never asked anyone to hold my ladder, or felt a need to.  If it isn't anchored pretty well to the roof, then I am not certain it isn't gonna slip sideways when first stepping down on the ladder from the roof. 

Or that a strong gust of wind isn't going to blow it over.  I was on a 2 story roof Tuesday when a very strong storm blew through Arizona where I am working right now, and I think it kept going and hit some of you folks in the central and east areas a day or so later.  I had to go down to the 1st story and shield myself from the wind for a bit.  My ladder would surely have blown over if it wasn't anchored.

My anchor of choice is a nice big fat piece of exposed wood facia:

I use 2 clamps, one on each side of the ladder.

If there is a gutter blocking access to the fascia, I will look for something more solid to clamp to like a rafter if it is exposed:

This is a 6' length of webbing which is the minimum I use for tie-off. An overhand knot at the clamp keeps the webbing from pulling sideways.

I am lucky to be working within 9 hours of where I live, so finally I was able to drive my van out with my own ladders rather than flying out on a moments notice from California and renting something.  My 1 and 2 story ladders have leg-levelers, which also eliminates the feeling that "something isn't quite right" or that someone has to hold the ladder.

And of course you do the proper angle, so you don't feel like you are "falling backward" while climbing.  I don't measure out the "1 foot out per 4 foot height" thing but stick my arms out like the diagram on the ladders tell you to, and for me if the rung at shoulder level is between my palm and knuckles I am good to go.  Your weight climbing the ladder should push it against the eve, and when you get to the eve you tie-off before getting off the ladder.

I was at a place yesterday that seemed to have nothing to tie-off to, then I found a porch column in the back yard and used a long piece of webbing to anchor a ladder rung to the building.  There is always a solution.

(continued)

If the soffit is boxed in with no exposed rafter tails, I will resort to the gutter nail.  I wrap the webbing around the nail and do an overhand knot so the ladder can't slip from side to side.  Again this is 6' of webbing, if you bring less it will often be too short.

No gutter, no exposed rafter.  There is a clamp on each side of ladder, so if one fails you have some redundancy.

I test the clamp to make sure it is very solid, and not going to just slip off the top of the shingle.  I have even clamped down on old cougar paw pads, watching the clamp bury itself into the foam rubber making sure it is tight, then test it with a tug.

Here's the mfgr: http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer...Grip.jhtml

I have seen Irwin Quick-Grip clamps sold at Home Depot, Lowes, Ace Hardware, Orchard Supply Hardware, and Amazon.com

As a woodworker I use a lot of clamps.  Irwin clamps are expensive compared to the Chinese junk.  But you get what you pay for, and these do NOT slip or loosen up.  The others are imitators, these ones are the real deal and worth the expense.

Posted By ChuckDeaton on 14 Mar 2009 06:49 PM
If you are really interested contact me and meet me in Houma, LA and I will show you the equipment and how to use it. Cat 102 remains free for the asking.

Posted By Kevin on 01 Jan 2011 07:41 PM
I recently worked a general liability claim where a handyman contractor was hired to check out the damage to a homeowner's roof and the shingles gave way, he fell 16feet to the grass, snapped his spine and will spend the rest of his life in a wheel chair....4 kids ages 2yr - 16years old. Roofs are part of our business, but I sure do advise climbers to listen to that little voice that pops up every now and again saying "are you crazy? no way are we going up there".......

3 words,  "ROPE AND HARNESS".  Even a 6/12 roof is unsteady with loose granules.  My kit costs me less than the cost of the hospital copay of a minor fall. You don't need all the high dollar equipment for most roofs. If a rope can pull my big butt out of the water on a ski, it can sure steady my feet on a 6-10/12 mitch roof till I can afford the good stuff. A good harness can be bought off ebay for less than $50. If you get serious and want to handle the big stuff go get some training. After getting my certification, I found that my daughter got rock climbing training for a lot less than I paid (basically a club membership).  Just a thought.

JWG

Posted By RobG on 06 Aug 2011 01:20 PM

 

I'm a new Adjuster, recently licensed. In reading about roof safety I've read and spoken with Adjusters about safety gear. Discussing shoes, some have the latest trend and have bought Cougar Paws. Those that have bought them like them. There are other time-tested roofing shoes from Duluth, Red Wing, Thorogood, Iron Age, and others. Are the Cougars a better choice? Experienced djusters... your thoughts?

Rob,

Cougar paws are awesome to say for sure!! But never forget that the best way to keep yourself SAFE upstairs is.............Common Sense

Take it from someone who was wearing Cougar paws when I tipped a ladder and broke my leg,pelvis,ribs,jaw and a fractured skull. That happened 26 October 2009. Just recently  on 23 April 2011 one of our fellow adjusters Brian Jones shattered(not broke) shattered BOTH legs from the knees down. He just recently had a horrific infection from some of the hardware that hold his legs(what's left of them anyway) together and his life was in danger. Brian is going to be disabled for the rest of his life. It should be noted that he was ONLY on a 4/12 pitch 1 story roof . The ladder was on a smooth concrete(wet) patio and the ladder simply slid out from under him.

I am experienced and capable adjuster and Brian most certainly is one of the best adjusters I have ever worked with, but we both threw common sense out the window!!

We used other peoples ladders that we did NOT set up. Never use anyone's ladder but your own . As bad as it sounds, me and Brian are lucky !! We are lucky because quite a few adjusters over the years have DIED from the same falls we survived.

Be careful my friend, trust me the world is a better place with you in it, that goes for all rookie adjusters.

COMMON SENSE

" The ladder was on a smooth concrete(wet) patio and the ladder simply slid out from under him."

I NEVER put a ladder on concrete...period. Wet concrete is even worse. I always place my ladder in a spot that, if I fell, would do the least damage to me.  Also, drink plenty of water, you can easily become disoriented/lightheaded when you are partially dehydrated.