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genco
USA
18 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2002 : 23:13:20
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Honesty, why is this a problem?
I could really use some advice. I am a restoration contractor, I have brothers that are CAT adjusters, the problem I have been experiencing lately is:
I write up a loss, some of which are 50 - 100 pages long ,meticulous as I am, I rarely miss anything in my accounting of damages. I do not embellish on the estimate or create non-exsistant damages. I don't like to deal with supplementals so everything is included the first run through if possible.
Several adjusters that I have recently encountered find this outragous because my estimates are higher than others. I use Xactimate and pretty much stick to there prices. I simply include all the damages at once. I don't quite understand the flak? Is it preferable to include the basics at first then add the rest later? Which just goes against my nature.
Alot of my competition, leaving items out at first is the status quo to get the job, because they are cheaper.
I have lost several larger jobs because of this reason, but at the end of the job the contractor that won the project ended up higher than my estimate for the same line items, with all the supplementals that were added.
My perspective, if I give an accurate accounting of all damages which are in turn verified by the adjuster, with no supplementals, doesnt everyone look better to the carrier for being thourough and precise.
Responses are greatly appreciated. |
Genco Joe |
Edited by - genco on 10/30/2002 23:18:28 |
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Gale
USA
231 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2002 : 23:46:17
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| Genco maybe the only problem is that your detailed estimate is costing you business. Are you using a database that has prices that are tailored in favor of the contractor, the carrier or one that is more middle of the road? |
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slowhandfan
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 01:20:19
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First of all,
I don't see where there is a problem with honesty,
second..it seems as though the problem is between you and the customer not the adjuster. |
Kerry A Freeman |
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olderthendirt
USA
370 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 02:47:35
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| how many adjusters are there in this buisness, that is how many have been fooled by a contractors low balling and then seeking suppliments, most of us learn and we should be able to write our own fair estimate. |
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JSVenning
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 07:21:27
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| "Bid 'em low, and watch 'em grow" was the watchword of competive-bid contractors seeking to look like the "low-cost provider" of construction services. Carefully worded exclusions in the bid language allowed for all the known "extras" to come up after the job was awarded. The problem, of course, was really the "bottom-line" mentality of awarders who didn't know how to get to the bottom line properly in the first place. "You can't make money if you don't get the job" also fit into the mix. Making a bid look low enough to win the job, while eventually getting paid a fair price for all the work that is required to complete the job, has always been a tricky path. |
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JSVenning
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 07:27:31
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| Another fly in the ointment is the carrier who refuses us the option of including everything that we know has to be done to complete the job. On many jobs we are told to not include O&P, dumpsters, miscellaneous roof metals, etc. We know and they know they'll have to supplement later, but it keeps the first estimate low, and therefore our fees down, too. Could just be a coincidence...right? |
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genco
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 09:00:01
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The Xactimate program I use I think is middle ground. I do adjust my pricing on the size of the job, the bigger the project the cheaper my prices get per line item. I am one of the few contractors that doesn't mark up materials at all.
Rarely have I been more expensive than my competitors on anything. My estimate is higher to begin with because it is inclusive of everything.
That is my only problem.
So it is true some carriers do minimize their estimates knowing they will have to come back again. All just to cut your wages? Thats very unfortunate, how many employers require a partially completed job?
It seems it would cost Carriers more to keep comming back.
I know that my contract is between myself & the insured, here in the real world it is not always that clear. I have come across horrible contractors and adjusters alike working together and costing the carrier more at the end of the day. I'm sure everyone here has heard of things like this happening, it's a shame, hurts everyone uniformily.
I lost a job because of the adjuster 6 mos ago, he gathered the H.O. Association together and told them if they hired me the claim would go into litigation and I would run them out of money and leave their project unfinished. He scared them into firing us as we were under contract. This particular adjuster brought in his out of state friend from 150 miles away to do the job, (not on a prefered contractor list) just a friend. They did the job and it cost the carrier 30k more than my estimate, yes that was 30 thousand.
There is alot of game playing that goes on. I'm not taking a side as I have seen far more shifty contractors than adjusters. I'm just stating what goes on.
Generally, in my experiance the seasoned adjuster doesn't engage in these games as the newer generation does, trying to make a mark or something.
Good luck to everyone!! |
Genco Joe |
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JimF
USA
1014 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 09:06:08
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"I write up a loss, some of which are 50-100 pages long"
An astute experienced estimator using Xactimate could write up an estimate for a brand new stick built construction residential unit in less than 50 to 100 pages.
Even the heaviest LA earthquake or Hurricane Andrew claims could easily be written in far less than 50 to 100 pages.
What kind of damages are you seeing which would ever require a 50 to 100 page estimate?
Are you estimating damages for Buckingham Palace or the Taj Mahal? |
Edited by - JimF on 10/31/2002 09:08:37 |
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fivedaily
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 14:57:04
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Hey don't knock the "newer generation" adjusters. I have been @ this for only 3 1/2 years and am much younger than most of these guys (and some of the gals) here on CADO. I learned how to adjust from a few old salts so to speak and always try to right a complete estimate the first time. The rule I have to play by is, "if I can't see I can't write it." Sometimes that makes supplements inevitable. I've made a great mark for myself @ my company and have begun training other newbees on our processes, writing a crappy, incomplete estimate is no way for anyone to make a mark. I've never seen anyone "make a mark" by doing this... my managers pay attention to how many supplements I get and what they are for. No credit given for supplements that happen because I didn't do the job right the first time.
Jennifer |
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ChuckDeaton
USA
373 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 22:28:20
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| The key and the missing step in most property claims is the scope. If the adjuster and the contractor agree on the scope and then write an estimate the results will be close enough to negotiate. |
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genco
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 22:43:23
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Alot of the jobs I write up that are between 50 - 90 pages are Fire/water damages, either commercial projects that are close to a total loss, 34 offices plus the common areas or historical/custom homes that don't fit in the parameters of the Xactimate program. If I change a line item I have to add an explaination of why it is changed. I also include a complete breakdown per room, not just my portion, I break down all the subs, plumbers - electricians - HVAC etc.. to give an exact accounting of everything involved in that room. IE 3 recepts & 1 switch.
My object is: when someone walks into the room they can run down the list and see yes that is damaged.
On the larger projects it helps to keep things clearer, it is alot more paperwork for me, but it is easy to read so everyone understands the complete job. No misunderstandings.
Most of the adjusters I work with like it as I can show how the subs estimates are broken down, which they rarely do on there own. I think it is important to know exactly which recepticles are replaced and which were cleaned, etc...
BTW, I've been using Xactimate since the first DOS version, I'm still finding ways to expidite the estimating. Also, carriers have there own preferences of how they would like me to write it up, that always changes depending on how many losses in the area, you know one combined price for roofing, felt, tear-off, drip & dumpster, other times a line item breakdown of each individual thing. |
Genco Joe |
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genco
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2002 : 23:01:56
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Jennifer,
Let me clairify "make a mark" I meant that some of the newer adjusters had fallen for the makem low and watch em grow trick that some contractors do to get the job. The adjuster may have been under the impression that all the damages would be fixed for this lesser amount. That could be quite the feather in your cap from the carrier standpoint.
I'm not knocking anyone, no offense meant. Glad to here you are thorough, we need more of us.
Several adjusters from Chubb, Liberty Mutual and Farmers have called me in to evaluate and re-contruct difficult Fire losses because of my accuracy and experiance, thats why it is hard to understand the reasoning behind the topic here.
Good luck with your carreer! |
Genco Joe |
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Ghostbuster
476 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2002 : 21:28:56
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Sidenote to Jim.
On a large loss, if you print out more than a few of the different reports on Xactimate, you can easily use up all the paper and ink in your printer. We adjusters are just used to only printing out that one report.
But...still and all, I have always contended that an Xactimate estimate wastes paper with all it's exessive spacing and verbage. |
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Newt
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2002 : 08:14:01
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My conclusion of the Xactimate report is that you only pull up whats needed, and much like a resume, brevity, brevity and don't leave out the meat. If I was a supervisor reviewing claims, I sure wouldn,t appreciate a lot of verbage as GB says. In a cat situation with a multitude of adjusters throwing paper at you, it could be a major problem. Thats just my opinion.
I am working in my State Farm training guide now, get up about four am before the birds. I will be ready to pass or fail the 26th of this month.... On with the goat rodeo!!!!
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Kelley
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2002 : 21:21:50
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| Ghostbuster, You always have such a wonderful way of hitting the nail on the head. |
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Cecil
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2002 : 14:48:36
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| Meet with the adjuster and go thru the house and agree on the scope, then the est should match. Most likely the adj has left items off his scope or you have items included as scope that they don't. In my experience the adj tends to leave items off and contractors have added items. However, the key is to be on solid ground and to approach everything with an attitude that is not adversarial and to keep an open mind and to be a good salesman. Maybe even be open to some compromising. As a contractor you may have to be so good as to make the adj think he has won. The adj also needs to be so good as to make you think you won. The whole object here is to see that the customer (insured) is made whole regarding his contract and that you and all involved have a good experience. A lot of times this is a big order. But a real rewarding one if you make money and everyone thinks they won. I am an adjuster and have never been told by an insurance co to save money. I have been told to make sure I don't pay for what is not owed, but in the same breath told to make sure I pay all that is owed. |
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Honesty ????? or rater accuracy
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